Todd Bentley ministered at Morninstar in Charlotte, NC

My own perspective on the Lakeland thing is it’s just a rehash of all the stuff we heard in the Eighties, with the Kansas City Prophets and on to Toronto and Pensacola. Those of us who were caught up in it got burned and learned the hard way. Lakeland is in the same mould, along with false prophets like Wendy Alec. And I say that as a still-convinced-charismatic Christian.

Jules, revival is great if one, people are called upon to be there to help those who come to Christ as the result of salvation. On a big scale local churhes need to be involved and not just the day of the revival. People need to be trained on how to minister to those who come. Also, sometimes the hype of the revival is what moves some people. As I have said before, the point of this movement hasn’t been about anyone to the media except the man called Bentley. to much focus on him and not enough on Jesus. As said if the healings are real, then lets see the documents published with the information not blacked out.

I am also a “still convinced” charismatic. But I don’t see anywhere in scripture where we are supposed to describe oourselves as anything but followers, beleivers, disciples, Christians etc. People have used these terms and it’s merely divides us into “camps.”

And yes, I agree this is merely a regurgtitation of the KC bunch, and Toronto and Pensacola…none of those evnets have had any lasting impact positively on the church or societies as a whole by anyone’s stretch.

Take a look at the Great awakening for example, and the revolution if you will that occured when sound ministers, proclaimed the Lordhsip of Jesus Chris, repentance from dead works, holiness, people wre cut to the heart in weeping and repentance.

Now.. we have people screaming, and gyrating, and bouncing off the walls, and barking andd howling, and we are supposed to beleive this is God’s Spirit. Look to Jonathan Edwards books that he wrote about true revival and you will see stark disturbing contrasts, to what Bentley and the International Coalition of Apostles. These men are not apostles nor prophets. Scripture is clear the church WAS..past tense built on their foundation. There is no biblical warrant to “re-claim” these offices.

C. Peter Wagner is not an Apostle,a nd his profound lack of discernment, and those who stood on that platform are as much to blame if not more becasue of their positions within the Body of Christ for “signing on” if you will to someone’s ministry taht has way to may subjective doctrines, doctrines that no one has heard of, and was spawned from the deviancies of william Branham. More in the Body should be aghast at the mere mention of Branham or Benny Hinn as being regarded as legitimate ministers to follow after in either subsdtance theoligically or by their lifestyle.

And sadly for Todd and his wife and children Todd has succeumbed to popularity and clebrity, and of course money. Wha’t worse though is that the church has to pick up the pieces of this disaster, and I seriously doubt that any of those those promoted this will publicly repent. Wendy Alec still hasn’t repented of her blasphemey, nor has the “head shaking” Staci Campbell who manifested demons and hissed her way through Todd’s “coming out party.”

And seriously, we will still see more from the Joyners’ and Che Ahn’s, their ministries will still keep a rollin’, books ,a nd DVD’s and memeberships, and other Jesus junk will still flood the marketpalce, and our brethren will still keeping waitnfor the “One Thing,” the brakthrough, the anointing, when through payer and studying God’s work and the disciplines, we will daily discover the riches hidden for us in Christ Jesus, mediatating on his magnificent and precious promises, and being trnasformed inot his likeness.

We either recieve and enjoy Him forevermore, or we can try and enter through another door, and it isn’t leading to His Throne, it’s leading people into deception, and Bentley’s actions are demonstrating that while God is being patient with Todd, Todd is manifesting what many have succumbed to, and therefore we are to have NOTHING to do with them.

Hey Ron, I’m one of thousands of folks that I know personally who’ve been impacted by Toronto, Brownsville, KCP/IHOP, and more… either through personal interaction with those ministries/revivals, or through personal interaction with people who carry the fire from those outpourings.

In fact, I start my day off at 6am every morning (and sometimes earlier) with the Prayer Room from IHOP and their daily devotional. This little program is having a tremendous impact on my life…

Alycin, I’ve been the victim of violence more times than I can count – both domestic and violence more random. I’ve also seen the tragic fallout of “rage” in any number of people. If I’d seen signs that TB’s healing ministry was either violent or rageful, things would be rather different.

Actually, from what I’ve seen on him in five personal appearances, including chit-chatting with him briefly in Charlotte, he seems to be a rather gentle guy – for all that he is flamboyant.

He says that God tells him to do these things – and I don’t think he’s making that up. Who would do that – knowing the liability risk – honestly.

Kathi let me play the advocate here. Jim Jones, and others have said that God told them to do things and alot of people are dead. Now this is where we have to descern the Spirit. You know how I stand on this, but I want to come at a different angle. Most people in a revival setting are so hyped up that they themselves might believe what is being done is of God and with the movement maybe they wouldn’t call on the police. Still we have to look at the scripture and Jesus spoke the healing into the people more than anything else he did. If we are to be Christ like, then we don’t punch, kick or run people down. We do it the way Jesus did. Waco was another find example of a man called David that said he heard from God to take up arms and they shot and killed people in the name of Christ. Doesn’t add up at all if you look at it. I can tell you, Kathi, God told me to tell you that you will inherit a million dollars. Does that really line up with you and the word. I believe this iswhere we need to go

Why would Todd do that? My answer is simple, you have to know God’s voice, his sheep hear His voice. My Shepard doesn’t tell me to kick, smack or punch anyone…even during ministry times. My flesh and the enemy does? And it is that simple. Todd has little or almost no discernment when it comes to what he allegedly hears, and is verified by how much what he sees and hears contradicts scripture. Such as his “little meetings” with Paul…spare me, I laughed pretty hard when a heard that grandiose delusion, what’s worse is the “Jesus” he had visited, you know the one that smelled like a cinnamon vanilla latte.” These are only a few, and I am sure you have heard more, but seemingly could care less, or use the Word and the Spirit to test these things. If you do, carefully and humbly you’ll find that most of Bam Bam’s teachings are specualtive at best, deviant often to the core.

Kathi, there are videos on youtube of Todd committing acts of violence against others, as well as him talking about committing acts of violence against others.

To go along with what Rev Merry said above, have you heard of a man named Michael Travessor? He is the 65 year leader of a cult called Strong City. He said that God told him to lie naked in bed with lots of women (some merely teenagers) in order to heal them, and these women and girls claimed they were healed. The underage girls that did this do not accuse him of sexual abuse, but of miracles. I am betting that this immediately jumps out at you as being a little bit suspect. He said that God told him to do it. He defends all his actions and does not deny any of it at all. What does that tell me? Either he is not a man of God at all, or that he truly believes all of it, in which case he probably has a few screws loose. I am not saying Todd doesn’t have real faith or that he is purposefully deceiving people or leading them astray… I am saying that he has probably managed to fool even himself into believing all of this.

Another instance of people proclaiming Christ is the religious group The Family International. They do missionary work and claimed to have brought hundreds of thousands to Christ. But they have a history of child sexual abuse, pedophilia, and incest… not just of this occurring sometimes, but they have publications stating that God would not have made children able to feel orgasms if they weren’t supposed to be having sex. Everything they preach, they claim is revealed to them by God.

This is why discernment is so very important when it comes to people claiming God is telling them to do something.

Dear goodness, comment explosion!

Thanks Kathi for the whole explanation there, and thanks Rev and Rev Merry? Or is it just RevMerry, sounded so much alike…oh b/c they are the same. Just skimmed the comments again, and I’m sleepy so I apologize.

Thanks for posting your account Kathi

Not sure if Id go so far as to say “heresy hunters might get saved”…there could be many of them that are saved.

Ron – while you and I have a very different way of expressing ourselves, I essentially agree with you about Branham and the ensuing infection. Branham was a big influence in the church I was in when I first got saved, and they sucked up Hinn, Hagin, KCP, Copeland and all that other rubbish. That church was not discerning, it focussed more on manifestations than God’s word – if someone claimed to be doing something by the power of the Holy Spirit and was vaguely about Jesus, we didn’t grab our Bibles and test. Instead we looked down on those who didn’t ‘get it,’ accused them of not being saved, hindering the Holy Spirit, bringing God’s judgement on themselves. We became arrogant and were spiritually blind. Really it set me up nicely for my later time in witchcraft – I got my best bootcamp training for that in the church. Well of course – it had the same source!

I went on personal retreat earlier this year and encountered a woman who was still addicted to Toronto. She went over there as often as she could afford to get her ‘fix.’ I gently asked her how she tested whether it was of God, and her answer? ‘Of course it is – look at all the signs.’ I expect she’s pro-Lakeland now.

On the subject of historical revivals I wholeheartedly agree. I’ve done a lot of reading about revivals this year, and I long for genuine revival. I look at a Biblically-based revival and I look at Lakeland, and never the twain shall meet. What we’ve been seeing via Bentley is not genuine revival – it’s immature people chasing after a sign. There ARE genuine Christians involved, but you’ll notice how scripture is gradually phased out in favour of personal words and visions, until the people convince themselves that what they’re experiencing does line up with scripture. They cannot see that they’re being deceived, and I seriously doubt anything anyone says will convince them otherwise. It’ll take God intervening to open their eyes. It’s a sign of God’s mercy that the UK visit is not taking place. From a purely sociological point of view it’s fascinating observing the group dynamics of the Lakeland phenomenon; from a spiritual point of view I weep in sorrow, because I’ve been there.

When I was serving as an admin under Kathi at Exwitch, I very much appreciated the strong Biblical stance we held against the WOF deception, and I am absolutely baffled now to see the kind of things that slip under the radar and are accepted (I’m not talking about the current Exwitch Ministries, I have no involvement with that since God moved me on). That’s one of the reasons I pop in and out of this blog – concern for Kathi and her family because I love them so dearly. And the reason I speak so strongly against Lakeland was because I was once deceived by similar and it left scars.

Yeah Philip Rev and Rev Merry one in the same. Just threw a little confusion in the mist of this for a bit of humor.

Jules, I have to agree with you completely.

As you know I too was burned by a WOF church. And because of it feel I may never again have a healthy relationship with God – too many hurts that don’t heal.

You know there’s tricky teachings there. Sooo easy to get swept up in it. I myself began scratching my head recently, wondering, ‘hmmm, is it so?’. But then I watched another video of TB and that’s all it took to shake me back to reality. Truth or not, I couldn’t go back there – not again. I’m sorry Kathi, but TB scares me.

And like you Jules, I worry for Kathi.
She knows how much I worry for her. And I’m saddened for the many that I’m sure left Lakeland only to find the healing they believed for never came. So who’s there to help them now?

I don’t know, I have a hard time believing that a true movement of God would leave SO many wounded hearts. I mean honestly, would it??

Donna – I know, hun, I still have the emails. I didn’t truly heal until I trusted Jesus again and gave it all to Him, but even then it took several years, I was so badly scarred. He’s been utterly faithful to me, and I’m nowhere near the mess I was 6 years ago when I came back At the end I had to say ‘I accept that You didn’t do this, You didn’t want it, it was all those people who claimed you didand they were wrong. I should’ve listened to You, not them, and sought you above all else.’ I vowed never again to put my trust in man, and I assess carefully now what I will listen to/read and take on board. And I’ll continue that with the side issue of the ‘next best thing’ and the next, when Bentley and Lakeland are relegated to the history books, because he won’t be the last. Jesus warned us it would happen and that there would be many of them. Something started demonically with EW Kenyon and we’ve been seeing the offspring for the past few decades.

Jules, quick question. You’ve said you consider yourself a Charismatic Christian. Can you distinguish for me the line between Charismatic and WOF?

Though it’s been many years for me, it seemed they were one and the same, at least here in NY. I mean I myself never saw a difference. But obviously there is?

Hooee – a big topic! Basically my perspective is: does it line up with scripture, both in terms of how it’s done and the focus of what’s done? I’ve seen (and personally experienced) tongues, healings, words of knowledge in scripture etc, and I’ve seen them in practice scripturally.

But I’ve also seen fakery, people vomiting in the Spirit, thrashing around moaning and hip-thrusting as if in orgasm, weird prophetic words such as I had my tattoos done in order to hurt my father, attempts to cast a spirit of feminism out of a friend who disagreed with something unscriptural that an elder said … I could go on and on. Paul said it best in 1 Corinthians. Bottom line – does it line up with scripture? I don’t see that with Lakeland in general because they’ve chucked the Bible out the window and turned into a bunch of adrenalin junkies turning up for their next fix. If it sounds strange and mysterious and weird, let’s take it on board and claim it’s the Holy Spirit!

Thanks Jules. Seems I always found the true WOF churches – never saw a mild Charismatic church before.

Of course at the time it was probably the excitement that I unknowingly was seeking out, as I had just left the Baptist church when I discovered WOF.

To Jules and Donna
I am so touched by your genuine concern for those being decieved by this false movement. Jules I am rejoicing for the healing you have received and that you are still able to know the power of the risen Lord in spite of those who hurt you. Donna, there are places out there where purity and truth are sought. The Holy Spirit is alive and well and moving today. We must however heed John’s warning in 1 John 4 to test the spirit. Also remember that the manifestation of His presence and what we feel is the end result of the truth of His word going in and the life changing encounters He wants us to have with Him. When our faith is in Him then the circumstances and even the environment no longer hold control over us.

Kathi,

In many of your articles on Todd Bentley you characterized many of your brothers and sisters in Christ as “heresy hunters.”

I missed your apology- or did you find that not worth blogging about?

Many people with many years of experience in following the Lord were saying that there were many things very wrong with his ministry – his doctrine and his double life.

I think some day you may find that doctrine IS important – what comes our of the mouth reveals what is in the heart. Indeed, on 8-8-08 at Morningstar, Bentley preached the Manifested Sons of God doctrine, which is polytheism (many gods). Did you note that?

Anyhow, I’m not trying to be inflammatory or snarky; just really wondering in retrospect how you view your pre-Lakeland meltdown comments now a year later.

All the best,

Bill Fawcett

I was wondering, Did Todd Bentley do any prophecying during this time?

The Didache: Teachings of the 12 Apostles

Handbook for new Christian converts, consisting of instructions derived directly from the teachings of Jesus. The work was never officially rejected by the Church, but was excluded from the canon for its lack of literary value. The Didache claims to have been authored by the twelve apostles the work could be a direct result of the first Apostolic Council, c.50 C.E. (Acts 15:28).

FOUR
Therefore, the one who comes and teaches you all of these things which have been previously spoken, accept him. But if he, the teacher, should turn to teach another teaching, so as to release this one, do not listen to him. But if he teaches to promote what is right and knowledge of the Lord, accept him as you would the Lord.

Now about the envoys and prophets, do just as according to the tenet of the good message. Now each envoy who comes to you, accept as you would the Lord. But he will not remain for one day. Now if there is need, also the next day. But if he remains for three, he is a false prophet.

Now when the envoy departs, he should take nothing except bread until he lodges. But if he should ask for money, he is a false prophet.

And every prophet who speaks with the spirit, you will not test or judge, for every sin will be forgiven. But not everyone who speaks with the spirit is a prophet: but if he has the conduct of the Lord. Therefore, from their conduct, the false prophet and the prophet will be made known. And no prophet with the spirit who orders a meal eats from it, unless indeed he is a false prophet. Now every prophet who teaches the truth, if he does not do as he teaches, is a false prophet. But every prophet who has been proved, who is true, who does things for the kosmic secrets of the assembly but who does not teach to do as he does, will not be judged among you. For the ancient prophets did it this way also. But whoever says with the spirit, “Give me money (or something else),” you will not listen to him. But if he says to give on behalf of others who are in need, no one should judge him.

Now everyone who comes in the Lord’s name should be accepted. But afterward, you will examine him to know him. For you will have understanding, right and left. If the one who comes is a traveller, help him as much as you are able. But he will not remain with you except for two or three days, if there is a necessity. But if he wants to dwell with you, since he is a craftsman, he should work to eat. But if he has no craft, provide according to your understanding, so that no lazy person would be lifing among you as an “Anointed”. But if he does not want to do this, he is one who profits financially from the Anointed One. Be careful about such people.

Now every true prophet who wants to settle near you is worthy of his wage. In the same way, a true teacher is also worthy, just as the workman, of his wage. Therefore, every foremost part of the products of the press and threshing floor, both of oxen and of sheep, you will take and give to the prophets. For they are your high priests.

But if you do not have a prophet, give these to the poor. If you make baked bread, take the foremost part and give according to the precept. In the same way, when you open a jar of wine or of oil, take the foremost part and give to the prophets. Now of money and clothing and every possession, take the foremost part as you think it right and give according to the precept.

Hmmm… What do you think? Maybe some good guideance here si that one does not fall under the false prophet? Maybe one should truley re-examine what they are following.

Yep, that is wierd stuff….

Well, I was kinda interested in your take on things. Looking at the July 4 baptismal video, with Jessa by his side, I guess we all should have seen a train wreck coming.

Make no mistake – God can and will touch and heal in meetings such as those. He honors people seeking him with faith. But the warning signs -extra biblical angelic fascination, tales of trips to heaven, punching/kicking people, and as I mentioned MSoG preaching should have tipped somebody off. I think those things are what raised the concern of the so-call heresy-hunters.

-Bill