Rick Joyner’s response to J. Lee Grady’s “Greasy Grace” accusations

Mar 142009

A few days ago, J. Lee Grady posted his weekly, “Fire in My Bones” missive. I only rarely read them, as Lee has been sliding down a slippery slope of condemnation for some time now. This one, however, caught my eye – and caused me to cancel my subscription to Charisma (sorry, Dave. I just can’t stomach it).

It’s not that Grady takes a differing viewpoint (note that some who frequent this blog would agree with him in principle). As I’ve explained (and explained, and explained) today at HHH, there’s a fundamental difference between being one who disagrees with brothers, and one who accuses brothers.

http://www.charismamag.com/index.php/fire-in-my-bones/20005-the-tragic-scandal-of-greasy-grace

Rick Joyner (Morningstar Ministries) has issued a reply – and a demand for an apology that J. Lee Grady owes him and the others:

http://www.charismamag.com/index.php/component/content/article/20035

There used to be a time when Charisma Magazine spoke to and for most Pentecostals and charismatics… that day is long gone. What a shame.

Ichabod

“and caused me to cancel my subscription to Charisma (sorry, Dave. I just can’t stomach it)” !!!
Alycin

I think that he is pretty much right on the mark, even if a little sensational in wording the whole thing.

People seem to think that we aren’t forgiving Bentley unless we accept his horrible decisions and pat him on the back as if he is the victim. He isn’t. He has had chances to make right with his wife and God and he has spit in both their faces. This to me is not the kind of person who should be trying to get back into ministry so soon.
catfantastic

I read the first article, and it rather made my blood boil. “Sweet, spineless love that cannot correct”…is that what he thinks it is to forgive someone? Does proper love really mean making a person feel like garbage every second of every day? I know you’ve said it doesn’t, but it seems to me that a lot of Christians seem to think it does.

And maybe making folks feel like garbage IS God’s way of loving people. Articles like this make me glad I chose the human way of loving, instead.
Ichabod

“And maybe making folks feel like garbage IS God’s way of loving people.” His way of tough love…..

http://iamhealed.net Kathi

Oy. Perhaps I’ll send a letter to Grady telling him what the non-Christians on this blog think of God’s love and grace.

I know you’ve said it doesn’t, but it seems to me that a lot of Christians seem to think it does.

A lot of Christians don’t believe the Bible they claim to follow and hold dear. Therefore, grace, forgiveness, and radical love are only available to those who didn’t really need it in the first place. Jesus said that those who are well don’t need a physician, and that He wasn’t coming for the “righteous”, but for the sinner. (see for example, Matthew 9:12,13)

http://Garnets2@yahoo.com Donna

So, I’m really trying to understand all of this –

In the beginning it was said that Bentley had had affairs before, and that this was not a new thing. Understanding this we then hear that his wife had finally had enough and wanted a divorce.

Bentley, after being publically exposed, claimed he would go away and work on his marriage, and get himself right with God and his family. Nothing is heard all winter, and then all of a sudden he’s divorced and remarried.

Last I knew, for a divorce to be finalized it takes some time – so it then appears as though Todd didn’t spend much time at all trying to mend his marriage. Instead a quick divorce and remarriage seems to have taken place over this past winter.

When this whole thing broke out, it was ‘known’ that Todd was having an affair. Todd did not protest this…this was the reason he stepped down from the pulpit…he knew he was guilty. Next thing you know, it’s being said that there was no immoral act between Todd and this girl until he was divorced. Seems to me someone’s twisting the truth here.

In Grady’s article there is this quote, “Todd and Jessa agree that their relationship was “wrong and premature” and that it “should not have happened the way it did”
So this tells me that there was indeed something going on before the divorce.

I’m sorry, but I’m in agreement with Grady on this one. Yes, a man should be forgiven when he has honestly and completey repented. But it seems to me that from the beginning they’ve done nothing but make excuses for this man. And now they’re rushing him back into ministry??
“Joyner is now collecting donations from supporters to help rebuild it.”
You’ve got to be kidding me!!

This man, if he were truly sorry, would have first gotten his heart right with his God, then worked with all diligence to mend his marriage. If his wife then still would not and could not trust him, and who would blame her, then he should have, to prove to his wife and ministry, stood still in the Lord for a time, and not run off to marry some young thing.

Even now, he himself should know that he’s nowhere near ready to return to ministry – just as he should have known he didn’t belong in ministry during this revival in Lakeland, knowing what he was doing on the sidelines.

This is just my opinion. Yes, I believe in forgiveness, but I don’t believe in giving excuses..especially for one that has claimed to know God better than the rest of us. Too many people get hurt – not only by the acts themselves, but then also by the excuses given.

Excuses are not repentance.

http://iamhealed.net Kathi

Donna, I think you might be reading a few “facts” which aren’t in evidence. For example –

- there is absolutely NO evidence, just unsubstantiated rumor, that TB was physically involved with this woman prior to his wife dumping him and moving back to Canada.

- there is only speculation as to why Shonnah left. Evidently, she was completely unwilling to reconcile. So we can condemn Todd all day long for not reconciling with his wife, but if she was unwilling…

- there is only speculation as to why Todd is the one who filed for divorce. There is only speculation as to why it was a “quick” divorce. I’m not really sure how things work in Canada, which is, I assume, where the divorce happened. I know that here, the person who files is the person who pays. Perhaps Todd, knowing he was in the wrong, filed, paid, and agreed to terms. (Who knows?)

- there is only speculation as to why he’s not said much about her.

(Since there’s so much speculating going on, we could also speculate that there’s some deep dark secret on the part of Shonnah, and Todd has refused to say anything publicly and filed for the divorce to spare his children further trouble. That would be a Christian response. But it would be wrong to do so, and so we won’t)

- it’s completely false(In fact, I would call that a LIE on Grady’s part) that Joyner’s “rushing” Todd back into ministry. Joyner has stated that people have been clamoring to contribute. He’s providing them an avenue to do so. It’s going to be a long time before TB gets back into ministry. I trust that Joyner, Johnson, and Deer have integrity and have a passion for God and His grace in this process.

And, as Joyner said in his response (I’m using “you” in a very generic sense) – if you’ve never been in the ministry of restoring someone, and you’re not one in authority over another, it’s probably best to hush and let those who ARE involved in that ministry and that authority take care of it. They’re the ones who will answer to God for that ministry and authority.

Donna

Kathi, my last post disappeared?
Donna

Hmmm…I’ll submit it again…

>>it’s probably best to hush and let those who ARE involved in that ministry and that authority take care of it. They’re the ones who will answer to God for that ministry and authority.<<

If Joyner doesn’t want those with concerns and opinions voicing them, then he really ought not to be making it such a public display of restoration, such as the new and weekly video interviews.

Kathi, you must admit that this will stir up opinions. And since it’s being made public, all are entitled to comment, be it liked or disliked.

http://iamhealed.net Kathi

I wish I could figure out why some things end up in the moderation queue and some don’t – completely randomly. Gonna delete the one that’s “Stuck” since you reposted it!

Jules

The more I hear about this man, the more glad I am that he’s had no input into my life. And that’s putting it mildly. I’m all for grace and forgiveness, and rehabilitation following genuine repentance, but what I’m hearing are excuses, weasel-words and more money-grabbing from the Bentley team. We can only go on what’s been publicised, but you Kathi seem determined to believe that Shonnah has refused to reconcile. You don’t KNOW that but you’re determined to rehabilitate this shameless charlatan at all costs. And once again the charismatic/Pentecostal camp scores a home goal. Disgraceful. Entirely with Donna on this.

http://iamhealed.net Kathi

You’re right, we can only go by what’s publicized – and yet, no one’s done that. I offer not condemnation of Shonnah, but a possible counterpoint. That said, one fact not in contention is that she left him.

I’m glad that he has influenced my life and ministry; I am richer for it. Not only have I gained much faith and a deeper understanding of spiritual gifts and power, I have gained both perspective on God’s grace and on the problems facing the church.

I am determined to offer grace and to rehabilitate those who say, “Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner!” To those who say, “I’m glad I’m not like that man” I really don’t have much to offer. If that’s disgraceful perhaps you should take it up with the One who IS grace.

I guess I’m just a charismatic, pentecostal camper on the Bentley team. :shrug:

Philip

Blame the internet imps; I’m almost convinced of their existence to foul up otherwise sound systems.

http://iamhealed.net Kathi

Not to mention sound systems. Bah.

catfantastic

I don’t blame these folks for being evasive, using weasel words, and whatever. I mean, these are their personal lives, held up to scrutiny by an audience that has higher standards of behaviour for celebrities than it does for itself, and a set of moral rules so labyrinthine and bizarre that it’d give the boldest barrister on the globe a conniption. I think it’s frankly none of our business whether it was him, or her, or whatever. That’s between them. And their God, if they like (although come to think of it, he’s never had sex in any of his incarnations; how on earth can he be expected to understand?).

To be clear, I’m no fan of Todd Bentley. Never heard of him outside of this blog. But whether the guy was caught with a woman who wasn’t his wife; or caught with the entire cast of Executive Koala and a capybara, all of whom he’d wedded in a civil ceremony, in a fishing lodge in the Almaguin Highlands; or carried on as a good pastor preaching whatever he preaches, I don’t figure he needs me dissecting what goes on in his personal life.

And for the record, that’s not about him–I don’t even know him–or about what he might have done. It’s about what kind of person I want to be. I mean, does it make you holier, to shout at the holy man? Or to swallow your outrage and stretch out your hand, no matter what he’s done?
http://wwwi-wonder-as-i-wander.blogspot.com/ linda

some of you might be interested in this article on postcharismatics. while i as a postcharismatic am all for the gifts, the fruit of the Spirit are primary. more jesus, less hoopla.
catfantastic

That is an interesting article!

And I do appreciate the way that he acknowledges postmodernism as a critique of modernism, rather than casually dismissing it as shorthand for “morally bankrupt.”
Anita

Ha! I am so in that article I totally am with the writer on the dangers of becoming post Holy Spirit and I totally agree with the de-construction – re-construction thingy. Very cool article
http://wwwi-wonder-as-i-wander.blogspot.com/ linda

cat,

there are a whole bunch of christians into postmodernism (which is not moral relativism). we’re in the emerging church movement which is doing some cool things. i have lots of info/links on my blog. some do get a bit off track theologically, but then again that happens everywhere in the church. with todd bentley i think the problems are largely the way the ministry is structured in that it sets people up for burnout and problems. i don’t think God ever intended there to be charismatic superstars. when church is performance-oriented we get christians just looking for the next fix or spiritual experience to consume. when we start from a place that is relational i don’t think we’ll have so many of these problems. unfortunately, from what i’ve experienced so far the emerging folks in the US aren’t too into the things of the Spirit. we need more post-charismatics.
Nu Kid

“Jesus said that those who are well don’t need a physician, and that He wasn’t coming for the “righteous”, but for the sinner. (see for example, Matthew 9:12,13)”

Hi Kathi -

Being contrarian here, I think there’s a bit of an apples/orange mixup. There any, of course, many such Scriptures as the above that address the need for salvation, They are the “apples scriptures”. I believe the “oranges scriptures” such as to which Grady defers would be applicable.

The apples (salvation) would obviously apply to the unregenerate. It is assumed that a leader would be saved.

The scriptures addressing leaders (and would-be leaders) are very different. Timothy and Titus are particularly strong in this area, stating leaders are to be above reproach and blameless. That may sound like “judging”; that’s because it is and it’s how things are supposed to be bibically.

If you could make an “oranges”-based (leaders) scriptural argument on Bentley, Kathi, that would be interesting. But the “apples”-based argument deals with the conversion of the unsaved and I don’t think it really applies here.
catfantastic

Linda, that’s good to hear! I think evangelicalism–especially the End Times stuff–is a profoundly postmodern movement, but most of the things I’ve read treat it like a dirty word.
Robin

God loves us and waits for us to come back, like the prodigal. And He doesn’t beat us over the head afterward, that’s what satan does. I don’t understand the Christian community anymore. The condemnation is so unforgiving and harsh and gossipy. No wonder the gay community, backslidin Christians and others run from us like we have the plague. There is no love in condemnation. May I remind the Christian community to get into there bible and read it, instead of getting up on your high horse. By the way, have you ever been thrown from a horse?

1 Peter 4:8 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
Ichabod

“The condemnation is so unforgiving and harsh and gossipy. No wonder the gay community, backsliding Christians and others run from us like we have the plague. There is no love in condemnation.”

From Leonard Pitt’s column in Sunday’s paper:

“And people of faith should ask themselves: What is the cumulative effect upon outside observers of Jim & Tammy Faye Bakker living like lords on the largesse of the poor, multiplied by Jimmy Swaggert’s pornography addiction, plus Eric Rudolph bombing Olympians and gays in the name of God, plus Muslims hijacking airplanes in the name of God, multiplied by the church that kicked out some members because they voted Democrat, divided by people caterwauling on courthouse steps as a rock bearing the Ten Commandments was removed, multiplied by the square root of Catholic priests preying on little boys while in some cases church leadership looked on and did nothing, multiplied by Muslims rioting over cartoons, plus the ongoing demonization of gays and lesbians, divided by all those “traditional values” coalitions and “family values” councils that try to bully public schools into becoming worship houses, with morning prayers and science lessons from the book of Genesis? Then subtract selflessness, service, holiness, and hope. Do the math, and I bet you’ll draw the same conclusion the researchers did.

Who can be surprised if the sheer absurdity, fundamentalist cruelty and ungodly hypocrisy that have characterized so much “religion” in the last 30 years have driven people away? If all I knew of God was what I had seen in the headlines, I would not be eager to make His acquaintance. I am thankful I know more.”
Alycin

Nu Kid makes a very good point. Why weren’t my last comments published?

http://iamhealed.net Kathi

Alycin, there’s no comments from you in the queue!? Sorry!!

Feel free to repost if you remember what you said.

Alycin

It was a while back… so I forgot.

But hey, question:

“Evidently, she was completely unwilling to reconcile.” Evidently? Where’s the evidence, now…? I haven’t seen any.
Jean

I just hope that people will not defend Todd just because they love revival.

Some people will defend anything just because they worship revival and not the sender of revival.

Most people will find reasons to defend Todd just because they are in man worship

http://iamhealed.net Kathi

Jean, I love revival

I don’t see too many people “defending” Todd per se. I see more of us (who are accused of defending Todd) actually defending GOD. Defending grace, forgiveness, and good biblical sense.

The folks (who were few and far between) that I know of who really “worshiped Todd” have already fallen away, disappointed. (as well they should; they got what they asked for!)

I’m with Rick Joyner on this one – it’s terrible and tragic that it happened, but it WILL cause the church to confront many issues.

http://wwwi-wonder-as-i-wander.blogspot.com/ linda

some random thoughts:

a friend in seminary pointed out to me that scripture never really tells us to seek revival and he was right. i think we need to just focus on what God has already told us to do and leave the results up to God. as mother teresa said (paraphrased) “God is not calling us to success but faithfulness”.

personally, i don’t think it is even possible to judge todd’s current and former marriage situation because no one but those involved really knows what exactly happened. also, the problems in the pentacostal/charismatic camp are systemic and set people up for failure. why is ministry more important than one’s family? i wish i could say like kathi that i think this will cause the church to confront many issues but i rather doubt that. i think we’ll see a few changes but just more business as usual.

awhile back, i had a dream about lots of people leaving “the stadium” where charismatics were “performing”. sadly, i know too many folks who don’t want anything to do with the things of the holy spirit because of the gross abuses they’ve experienced in charismatic churches. they are some of the most bitter and disillusioned christians i’ve met. i think we’ll continue to see this exodus from the charismatic way of doing things because the destruction it causes in people’s lives is just too high.

when robbymac had his book post charismatic? online before it was published i read it and it is an excellent and much-needed analysis of the history of charismatic/pentacostal churches. sadly, it isn’t being published in the US but is in the UK. (i’m not in any way connected to him or his book i am just passionate about this issue.)

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