I alluded to this in a previous post, and am going to start the ball rolling for the discussion.
I have always been and likely will always be what I call “pan-trib” – it’ll all pan out in the end and my relative understanding is not changing this fact: Jesus is coming. He’s coming whether the pre-trib mid-trib or post-trib people are right, wrong, up, down, or sideways.
I used to tend toward belief in the pre-tribulation rapture of the church – that immediately before God starts pouring out wrath on the world, Jesus will pull the church out of here. These days I’m leaning much the other way – that end-time events will unfold but that the church will be here for the duration; the “rapture” doesn’t take place until after the tribulation period. This has been a long time in coming for me – When I was AoG, there were two specific areas I didn’t toe the AoG party line on: tongues as initial evidence and the rapture of the church. It wasn’t that I disagreed that “it could be this way”, it’s just that I disagreed that it “has” to be this way. Both sides make excellent Scriptural points. I’d periodically take it out, dust it off, and ask God to speak to me about it. Each time I have, the Word’s led me further into the belief that the church will be here during the tribulation period (tongues as initial evidence I’ll leave for another post).
This is no hill to die on. IMHO belief in Christ’s return is essential, but knowing for sure about the timing isn’t. Neither side should fight over it, but carefully consider what the Word says. Differing opinions about the timing of His return should not be a divisive issue among Christians.
I’ve tried to word this so that it doesn’t come across as saying pre-tribbers are out and out wrong, but at a few points I couldn’t avoid it (sorry, guys)… please, if I’ve erred in any way in stating what you believe, set me straight!
So here’s the crux of the question – or at least the question that was asked of me that set me again on this journey of questions:
Does Jesus return once? Or twice?
Conventional pre-trib rapture theology actually has Him returning twice – once for His church, and a second time for the Millenial Kingdom. Some pre-tribbers don’t go that far but say that there is a call (the trumpet) for the saints and that triggers the rapture but that Jesus doesn’t bodily return at that point. However, if you put the Scripture on that subject all down together, there doesn’t seem to be a way for that to work out.
In fact, reading over the Scripture the pre-trib folks use, it even seems like they must be saying that there will be not one, but two “Days of the Lord” – which cannot be because the “Day of the Lord” is never spoken of as a plural. There is one singular Day of the Lord. He’s returning to earth once… not coming, going, and coming again. Now, the pre-trib folks I know all agree that there will only be one “Day of the Lord” – but by so saying, they negate some of the very Scripture they use to support their position.
One of the key Scripture passages used in pre-trib theology is from Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians – but when you dissect it, it’s really supporting a post-trib rapture of the Church! I’m also going to get into Matthew 24 a little bit. I’m saving Daniel and Revelation for another day! 
On the left, I’ve quoted bit by bit from the NKJV. On the right is my commentary. Even though I have quoted the text on the left, it will probably be easier if you open your own Bible and follow along.
“Father, in Jesus’ name, I ask that you would open the eyes and hearts of all who read this – as well as my own! – so that we could delve deeply into Your Word and into Your heart, and we could know what You are saying to Your church about these important matters. Let none of us cling to “our rights” but only to Your right. Humble us and unite us. Let all that is done, be done with love.”
| 1 Thessalonians 4:16 through 5:23 |
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| For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. | There is a definitive bodily RETURN there! |
| And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we are are alive and remain | remain from what? Living? That would be a redundant statement. We who are alive and remain through the tribulation… |
| shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. | If we’re whisked out of here before the real trouble starts, why is anyone in need of comfort at that point? |
| But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. | This passage has been used forever-and-a-day to imply that nobody will know when Jesus will return. But read it! That’s not what Paul is saying at all! He just got done saying, “You know the time and season.” Then read on… |
| For when they say, “Peace and safety!” | note the “they”. Not “you”, not “people”, but “they”. |
| then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. | This is talking about wrath coming upon sinners – not on the church. Note the timing of that wrath – the church is still present when “they” are judged because Paul admonishes the Thessalonians not to worry about it (see next verse) |
| But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. | Paul tells them they’re not in darkness and so don’t need to fear the (singular) Day of the Lord when Christ returns. |
| [verse 9] For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. | Pre-tribbers have argued that since the church is not appointed to wrath, the church cannot be physically present when wrath takes place. But that’s not what the Bible says. Paul wrote that we should comfort each other with these facts. Why should we need comfort or exhortation if we’re not even going to be here for it? |
| [verse 23] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. | And so we’re again back to – does He come once? Or twice? And if nothing in the Word directly indicates TWO returns, where does that leave us? (not at a pre-trib rapture) |
| 2 Thessalonians 1:6 through 3:3 | |
| …since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, | Those who sow trouble to the church are going to receive trouble: heaps of it. |
| and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, | “rest” is interpreted by pre-tribbers to mean “outta here”… but in the Bible “rest” often means peace even though a storm is raging. In fact this word “rest” (anesis in the Greek) means “a more tolerable condition in captivity”… not as “an escape”. |
| in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. | The timing here is crucial – two things are happening: punishment of those who do not obey the gospel, and God IN THAT DAY being glorified in His saints. |
| [Chapter 2] Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. | The “there will be no tribulation, there is a secret rapture” heresy is old news. Paul makes it clear that everybody’s gonna know, without question, when the Day of the Lord happens. |
| Let no one deceive you by any means, for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, | That Day will not come… until after the antichrist is on the scene. Since “that Day” is when the rapture happens… the church will see the antichrist… AND… |
| who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? | not only will the church be on the scene for the AC’s arrival, we’ll see him sitting as God in the temple of God.This is the “abomination of desolation” that Jesus talks about in Matthew 24.
My fear is that half of those who call themselves “Christians” will then worship him. |
| And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. | This whole passage is talking about how the AC is going to show up on the scene and is going to initially be a man of peace, but that he will be exposed for what he is. The Holy Spirit isn’t going to be removed from the world… He’s going to step out of the way as the Restrainer so that end-time events can unfold. |
| And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. | When? With His coming. So if He comes and takes the church out, when exactly is He coming to take out the “lawless one”…? |
| The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders…that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. | There will come a point where those who willfully disbelieve will be irrevocably condemned. |
| But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast… | Stand fast during what? During the time that the lawless one is working and sinners are being condemned. |
| Matthew 24 | |
| And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.” | Church, this is vitally important. Throughout history, and even currently, people have risen up and proclaimed themselves to be Jesus returned in the flesh. Some of them have been schizophrenic (or demon-possessed, whichever you prefer), but some have seemingly been sane – yet earnestly believe they are the Christ and convince others of this. (This is not, however, speaking against people having visions and dreams of Jesus.) Jesus gives a great deal of evidence regarding how we will know that it’s really Him.
For context, also read verses 23-26. |
| And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. | This is where we are at today – in “the beginning of sorrows”. One cannot help but note that even as nations prosper and grow, war, starvation, disease, disaster, and persecution seems to grow along with it. Everything seems to grow exponentially. |
| And then many will be offended, and will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. | This is a picture of the church today – again, the problems we face are growing exponentially.
It used to be that most people rarely, if ever, met someone who wasn’t an attendee of a Christian church. These days, cults like the JW’s and LDS have risen up and false religions abound. Part of the reason our cultures have become pluralistic is because the church is a house divided and in that lawless state, many have abandoned the church… and the Lord. |
| But he who endures to the end shall be saved. | The end? When is the end? If the church is raptured before the tribulation, there’s no enduring until the end, is there? |
| And this gospel will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. | The gospel’s gotta be preached. Everyone has to hear it. That would include the people living during the tribulation. |
| Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place… then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. | correlation between this and 2 Thess. 2:4, as already discussed. Note that those who are in the immediate geographic region should get away… and as indicated by the next few verses, the getting will not be easy! |
| For then there shall be great tribulation, such as has not been seen since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor shall ever be. | After the abomination of desolation… that is, after the AC reveals himself “as god” in the temple… the great tribulation begins. And guess what? The Church is still here: |
| And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. | This directly states that the church will be going through at least part of – and I believe all of – the tribulation. “Unless those days were shortened” doesn’t mean an escape clause. It means that sin is so terrible that God’s wrath could go on forever… but He will not, because He has a better way. |
| For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. | This verse is often related to 1 Thess 5:2 about Jesus coming as a thief in the night, and further in Matthew 24, Jesus says, “Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect”.
The exact moment of His appearing is going to be a mystery up until He gets here – but Jesus says again and again that we’re to know the times and seasons and be prepared. Note the future tense “will” in this passage. It’s in no way talking about Jesus coming to rapture the church, tribulation comes for 7 years, then He comes again. It’s saying, “This is what it WILL be like.” |
| Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. | Immediately after the tribulation… then apply the previous verse to the next: |
| Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. | When Jesus comes, His return will be visible to all. He’s not going to sneak the church off and then come back in clouds of glory. If Jesus comes in the clouds “in that Day” and raptures the Church, how will He come in the clouds “in that Day” for judgment? Nothing in the Bible that I’ve found so far lends credence to this assumption. |
| And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. | Now here’s an interesting passage. Taken by itself, it could mean that the elect are already in heaven.
Except if you add Acts 1:11 to the mix, the apostles were told we’d see Jesus return in the same way He left – which implies the perspective of being on earth. Then add 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 to it. Paul says that we shall not all sleep (die) but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trumpet. A review of the book of Revelation has the last trumpet sounding in chapter 11… after the tribulation. |
| [verse 33] So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near – at the doors! | We may not know the day or the hour – but we are going to see the signs and see them clearly. |
| For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. | This passage can be taken in several ways.
To interpret the first part as being a surprise-to-all pretrib rapture, one would have to ignore the previous 37 verses of what Jesus said on the subject. Taken in context both with what Jesus said here, and with what’s already been outlined from the letters to the Thessalonians (and a lot of other Scripture I haven’t touched on yet!), I think what’s going to happen is that although disaster and mayhem will increase as God starts to pour out His wrath on the land, people will continue on the same as always, oblivious to the fact that total destruction is coming. This seems to be confirmed in 1 Thess 5:3 and 2:11, 12. |
| Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore… | I’ve always heard it taught that this refers to the rapture of the church…. that BAM! People will suddenly be missing. And it could be that way (just at the end, not at the beginning).
However, I recently heard an alternate theory that makes sense. The church IS going to go through retaliatory tribulation – the antichrist and those who are his will attack us. However, God’s wrath is not for His Bride, for the true church. Therefore, when there’s a famine or sickness or earthquake or fire from heaven it’s not going to take US out. But if I was working next to an unbeliever, His wrath could take them out and leave me wholly unscathed. (Now there’s a humbling thought!!) |
| Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat his fellows servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. |
This parable should stop everyone who calls themselves a Christian in their tracks.
Jesus is not talking here about “saved and unsaved” in the sense that we usually think of them (those in church vs. those outside of it). He is talking about people who serve Him. Are you a wise, faithful servant who the Master will find “so doing” upon His return? Or are you evil in heart, attacking the brethren, taking what you can get, looking out for “#1″, given over to gluttony and the cares of the world? If you are of the former sort of servant, continue to press in and press on. But if you are of the latter, you have been given time to repent. Jesus says that some of those who are His servants will be cut in two and appointed their portion with the hypocrites. The whole POINT of the tribulation is to separate the wheat from the tares… |
| [the next two parables are about the ten virgins and the sheep and the goats] | These two parables build from the last one – God is purifying the church. |
Wow. There’s a LOT to digest here. (I ended up covering a lot more ground than I set out to!) In a future post I’m going to tackle Daniel and Revelation and tie it in together here.
If I can figure out how to do it, I’m going to post a comment someone made a long time ago that was wholly off-topic for where it was posted, but on point here – about historical and contemporary figures in the church who supported or at least allowed the possibility for a post-trib rapture.
Feedback, including disagreement, is welcome as long as it’s on-topic and polite. Any “You are obviously a heretic” type comments will be laughed at, then deleted. 
[this post originally had comments but unfortunately they were lost in a wordpress glitch - feel free to repost]
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