Are Mormons Christians?

I posted yesterday that I really like Glen Beck. Seems to be a super guy. He’s a great conservative leader in our country and he’s uniquely positioned to leverage both media and money for the conservative cause. In spite of his views, which are sometimes perceived to be divisive even among conservatives, he’s done an incredible job of making diversity among us a reality. Everything I see, hear, and read indicates that he’s a family man, leads a life of integrity and good moral values, and he really believes in the stuff he talks about. He has the added bonus of being brilliant.

Beck has been able to rally and organize a wide range of people. His recent Restoring Honor gathering in DC is a great example – he brought together an incredible number and range of people. If we could have gotten there, Ken and I would have attended. Good stuff.

We can call Beck a great conservative leader and be absolutely correct. I believe that conservative people of all races, religions, and socio-economic backgrounds can and even should agree with him, rally with him, and look to him as a leader. I have no issue with Christians joining with Beck (or anyone else) to promote the conservative agenda.

We can call Beck a great conservative leader who happens to include Christians among those he leads. HOWEVER. (isn’t there always a “but…” to everything?)

We cannot call him a “Conservative Christian” nor can we say he promotes “Christian” values and morals.

Beck bills himself as a Christian, and indeed his church has probably taught him that he is a Christian. He is not a Christian, and I’ll demonstrate why later in this post.

I had a conversation on FB yesterday with a woman who once was a Christian and is now LDS (Mormon) and truly does not realize that she is not following Jesus Christ. I talked to some other folks last night who say that since Beck calls on the name of Jesus (and no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit), that he must be saved even if he is a Mormon. Besides, “no one can know hearts except for God.” I even heard (in conjunction with the last statement) that God knows Beck’s heart and since Beck is a good, moral man, he is going to heaven. (I just stared when I heard it).

I say that the Jesus of the LDS Church is an altogether different Jesus, one who is incapable of saving anyone… and although the statements about saying Jesus is Lord, judging hearts, and “good people going to heaven” may have biblical support and/or emotions attached, both are gravely in error. (Wait, read on before you stone me…)

I’m going to work in reverse order and address hearts and salvation first – then the ability to say Jesus is Lord – then contrast the nature and identity of Jesus in the LDS Church and Christianity.

Before I do – let me say a few things:

• I am about to slaughter a large number of sacred cows; and I’m not talking about cows on the Mormon side of the fence. Christians get ready… Barbecue at my house at six. Casual dress. Bring a side dish and come on over.
• I have nothing against the Mormon church or any believers within it.
• I do have some limited experience with the LDS; it’s a little complicated but I attended briefly as a teenager. I’ve read the Book of Mormon (several times, actually – with lots of biblical cross-referencing going on), Doctrines & Covenants, and another book that I think is called Pearl of Great Price. I said all that to say that although my experience is limited, I’m not coming at this blindly or basing my opinions upon hearsay. I’ve seen and studied firsthand.
• I welcome comments from anyone – conservatives, liberals, Christians, Mormons, and any sacred cows that escape … (if the comments system returns to working order – sighs – if you post a comment and don’t see it approved within 12 hours, email me kay -at- iamhealed -dot- net)
• This is going to be a very, very long post. Sorry.

So – can we know the heart of a man and judge whether or not he is saved?

The simple answer is, “Sometimes.”

When a person says, “I am a Christian, I have given my life to the Jesus of the Bible” and lives their life according to Scripture, it is virtually impossible to judge (and really, we probably shouldn’t). Are they really saved? Probably. Could they be lying? Yes. (I’ve heard stories of pastors getting saved after decades in the ministry… think their congregations knew they weren’t really believers?)

But when a person says, “I am a Mormon, I have given my life to the Jesus of the Mormon Church, I live according to the principles of the Mormon Church” they are saying that they are following a different Jesus and a different gospel than that in the Bible.  There is no other name by which we may be saved – if one worships a false Jesus with a false gospel and they call it “Christian”, that doesn’t make it so.

The New Agers do something similar – several of them have written books about salvation experiences with mystical Jesuses. So is Deepak Chopra now a Christian because he talks about Jesus? How about Oprah Winfrey? Likewise, there are Hindus who also believe in Jesus (they add Him to their list of gods). There are even “Christian Witches”. Are these folks actually saved?

BibleJesus and MormonJesus are two entirely different folks, folks. The LDS church uses similar terminology to describe God, Jesus, and salvation – but they mean something completely different. (more on that later)

Let me put it in simple terms. I am married to Ken, who is a great guy, who loves me and provides a great home and life for us. Suppose that I wandered down the street and there’s a guy named Ken standing there. Same name. Different Ken. I go up to him and say, “Hey! Ken! I love you! Let’s go shopping and then go home and eat dinner”… even if DifferentKen took me shopping and then home, does that make him into my real husband, Ken? Even if he tries to do all the things RealKen does, he can never replace Ken nor can he give me the true benefits of being married to Ken.

Likewise, if a person gives their life to MormonJesus, who is an entirely different entity than BibleJesus, they are not saved – even if they talk like they are. Same name. Different Person. We can (and must) judge whether a person is a Christian or not by this simple test.

Does that make sense? I hope so.

Do good people go to heaven?

Only if they know Jesus as Lord and Savior. Period. We can’t stage an end run around salvation by saying, “God knows what’s in Beck’s heart and knows he’s a good man.” Let’s take Beck at face value and say that yes, he is a good man. He does good things. He lives a moral life. God knows all this…and He also knows that in spite of all the man’s good works, he is a sinner (no different from anyone else). Does He see the blood of Jesus? Can Beck get to heaven by his own good works? If he can, there is no need for any of us to be saved… no need for Jesus, for the cross, for atonement…

Does the MormonJesus have power to forgive sin? Does the MormonFather (a created being who earned the right to rule over the earth – more later) have any say in the matter? When Mormons are judged, they will not be judged by their own gods. The One True God is the only God.

Can someone say “Jesus is Lord” if they are not a Christian?

I’ve lost count of the number of times well-meaning Christians have said, “No one can say “Jesus is Lord” unless they’re a believer.” They generally get a look of sheer terror on their face when I tell them that when I was a witch, dealing with a door-to-door evangelist, I had great fun hollering “Jesus is Lord!” and jumping up and down with excitement.

Yes. When I was a witch I said those words. I did believe in Jesus (I thought Him to be one of the five gods in the Christian pantheon: Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit (the silent partner in the family business), Mary, and satan. Yes, seriously.) I did not in any way accept the Lordship of Jesus Christ or particularly believe that He was actually REAL. Yet I could say those words. That comes as a shock to a lot of people.

Yes, it’s true – there are some people who, (often because they are demonized), are unable to say the name of Jesus. That’s not really at all what this is about.

So let’s look, quickly, at the Scripture this erroneous belief is derived from, 1 Corinthians 12:3:

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed,
and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

There are three ways to look at this (that do not, in my opinion, do violence to the Scripture):

First, that God is big enough to allow people to speak those words even in doubt or derision – the words are truth even if the person speaking them does not believe them to be. (We could delve into life and death being in the power of the tongue and whether or not speaking those words without meaning them could lead a person to belief one day… but we’ll leave that alone for now). As a corollary, let me say I believe there are times when the Spirit of the Lord proclaims Christ even though the person or demon does not accept His lordship – the Gadarene demoniac, the girl with the spirit of divination in Acts 16, etc.

Second, Beck can say, “Jesus is Lord” (and has done so publicly) because he really does believe that Jesus is Lord. He has the wrong Jesus, but he believes that his Jesus is Lord. If you refer back to my illustration about my husband, if I believe that the wrong Ken is my husband, and call him so in front of all my friends, that doesn’t make that man into the Real Ken.

And third, there is a difference between saying something and truly meaning it as you say it.  Once can call Jesus “Lord” without declaring His Lordship over your life (which IS something that can only be done by Holy Spirit, because without Him, there is no adoption and without adoption, He can’t be Lord…). Jesus Himself said that people would call Him “Lord, Lord” and even do stuff in His name, but they weren’t people that He knew (Matthew 7:21-23).

So all of this begs the question : Who is the LDS Jesus? What makes him different from the Real Jesus? And why is it so important?

I’m going to try very hard to stick to the Truly Important Things here – and I’d appreciate it if commenters would do so. Yes, Mormons wear funny underwear as part of their religion. So what? I bet yours are funnier, you have no excuse for wearing them, and besides, it’s rude to wave someone else’s panties about in public.  In all seriousness, YES – there are extrabiblical factors we could concern ourselves with. Mormons wear special undergarments. They abstain from alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine. They have special marriage ceremonies and beliefs about the continuation of family units after death. There was a time when they practiced polygamy. There are questions about violence, criminal activities, failed prophecies, and a whole slew of “stuff”. While there are inherent problems with all these things, they’re generally not salvational issues. There are much bigger things to be concerned about. (and you, Christian, if you think you have no extrabiblical beliefs or skeletons in your church-history closets, I can list them for you … trust me, you do.)

So lets stick to basics here. What things really matter to salvation? And how simply can I explain them? This will be very, very simple. I’m expecting comments… “you should have explained this or that in more detail” or from Christians, “that’s not QUITE what I believe” … sorry. Trying to keep it very, very simple and trying to paint with a very broad brush.

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The very first thing we should look at is Scripture, because it is believed to be the Word of God and therefore is truth; all (well, ok, most) of our doctrine and practice is derived from Scripture. That holds true for Christians and Mormons alike.

Christians believe that the Bible is the Word of God. Although many Christians (myself included) believe that God still speaks today (prophecy), we do not believe that new Scripture is, needs to be, or will be created. Anything that God speaks on any subject will line up with His already-stated Word, the Bible. Those called to the office of Prophet have authority from God but they lack authority to contradict Him or supercede His stated Word. God’s Word does not contradict itself.

Mormons believe that the Bible, the Book of Mormon, Doctrines & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price are all Scripture. While they say that the Bible is equal to the others, in practice the BOM and D&C are the most important books for study.  While I have not compared the BOM, D&C, and POGP to each other, I have compared them to the Bible and there are many inconsistencies and outright contradictions. Furthermore, LDS Prophets speak in a similar way (if I understand correctly) to the Pope when he speaks ex cathedra, that is, what they say has the same weight as Scripture. Therefore, when the Prophet speaks, the people do. However, in the future, another prophet could change what the first prophet said.

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To understand who Jesus is, first we have to understand the nature of deity, of the Father, and the nature of mankind.

The Bible teaches that God the Father is eternal, He is an uncreated Being, and He’s always been God – meaning that no one created Him, there was never a point in time that He did not exist, and never a point in time when He was not God. He’s always been perfect, cannot have been less perfect in the past than He is now, cannot become more perfect. Christians also believe that the Father is spirit – He does not walk around in a human body.

The LDS church teaches that God the Father is a created being who achieved immortality and had to be MADE perfect. They also teach that the Father has a physical body of flesh and bones (but, interestingly, without blood). According to Joseph Smith, God “once was a man like one of us and…once dwelled on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did in the flesh and like us.” (Larson, Stan (1978), “The King Follett Discourse: A Newly Amalgamated Text” , BYU Studies 18 (2): 193–208.)

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The Bible teaches that God created man, and although it alludes to God knowing us before we are born, that is because He exists outside of time. Men do not pre-emptively choose anything prior to birth. Men and angels are distinct created beings: men are not angels (nor become angels), angels are not men (nor become men).

The LDS church teaches that all men existed in spirit (pre-mortal) form prior to being sent to earth to live. Pre-mortal spirits have gifts, talents, and skills. Two thirds of these pre-mortal people decided to stay with the Father’s plan, one third rebelled with satan and God refuses to give them mortal bodies and will not allow them to “progress”. satan (a pre-mortal being like you, me, and Jesus) was the leader of those who rebelled.

The Bible teaches that God is not the author of sin and did not cause or desire the Fall of man. Sin was not the original plan for mankind. Sin is an evil thing and not something to rejoice in.

LDS theology teaches that the Fall was God’s design…he planned it… so that human beings in mortal form would have the ability to procreate. In fact, Adam and Eve later rejoiced that they had sinned against God and eaten the fruit. (Moses 5:11)

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Who is Jesus and where did He come from? To understand this question, we have to also understand who satan is and where he came from. Although certainly everything I talked about above could lead one to conclude, “Mormons are not Christians”, this next section had better lead you there.

The Bible teaches that Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and she became pregnant with Jesus. She was a virgin and remained a virgin until after He was born. Christians disagree about the exact mechanism of conception, but all Christians agree that “virgin birth” means “no sex involved”.

In Mormon theology, Jesus was the first born of the pre-mortal spirit children (and satan was second) that existed with God for a season before ending up on the planet. In order to procreate, it is commonly assumed that God the Father has a wife and spirit children have spirit parents, and parents create children through marital relations.

Let me be clear – to say that there is a “goddess” in LDS theology would be a distortion. However – well, check this page out, the author is LDS and can speak for himself, and does a pretty good job of explaining things.

Now, back to where Jesus came from in LDS theology:

Mary became pregnant with Jesus because the Father had literal sexual relations with her and impregnated her. This is possible because the Father has a human body.

One must consider the implications that the Father committed adultery upon his wife by having relations with Mary.

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The Bible teaches that Jesus is an uncreated Being, fully God, eternal.

satan is not a god, was never a god, is never and can never be equal to God. he is a created being.

LDS teachings indicate that Jesus was chosen (or that he volunteered) from among the created, pre-mortal spirits (some say because he was first, that doesn’t seem to be a consistent teaching in what I’ve read). satan was another of those spirits. YOU were another of those spirits. satan rebelled because Jesus was picked over him and a whole lot of trouble happened as a result.

Jesus, satan, you, and me were once all equals, created from the same stuff. Jesus went on to be God and be born into a human body, satan doesn’t get to have a body, and you and I were put into bodies so that we could further progress toward perfection.

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What is salvation to a Mormon?

Christian salvation involves putting one’s full faith and trust in the atoning work of Jesus Christ for salvation. We confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts that He is Lord, Holy Spirit indwells us, we are adopted into God’s family. None of it involves our own works or righteous acts. Those who are saved go to heaven. Those who are not go to hell.

Mormons teach, “We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.” (An LDS Twitter follower sent me the following link, which is where that quote comes from and is helpful in getting an overview of LDS beliefs:  http://lds.about.com/library/weekly/previousyears/aa060801a.htm)

Mormon salvation does involve believing in Jesus and repenting of sin (remember, though, that their Jesus is a created being and the spirit brother of satan), but salvation ALSO involves very carefully doing all the right things. If you do not do the right things, you do not win the prize (but the price of not winning isn’t so bad; they don’t believe in hell).

Their own literature says:

• Latter-day Saint doctrine teaches that after the resurrection, all will be judged and rewarded for the things done in this life. Those who are worthy to return to the presence of God and Christ become “heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ” ( Romans 8:17) of all that the Father has. They will return to live with Heavenly Father and with their families.
• Those who choose not to follow Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ will receive a reward according to what they have done in this life, but they will not enjoy the glory of living in the presence of God.

These rewards involve a rather complex series of kingdoms – the lowest one is bad, but it’s not a place like hell. Depending on how wonderful a life you lived, if you did all the right ceremonies and so forth, you have opportunity to get better and better digs for eternity. Some Mormon teachers even say that you can become a god yourself. Several of the LDS apologetics sites I visited* say, “pooh pooh, that’s not true” but Smith & Young both seemed to have taught and believed it.

Conclusion: The God of the Bible and the God the LDS Church adheres to are not the same being – their nature, character, and plan for mankind (past, present, and future) are completely different. A Mormon cannot be a Christian, even though they profess faith in Jesus Christ and even though they may live a life of faith in the Jesus they believe in.

I realize that there is a lot of information here. Hopefully I have presented it simply and truthfully.

*By “LDS apologetics sites” I mean sites written by LDS adherents explaining and defending their beliefs. Although I did consult wikipedia for fast reference (and pursued corroborating sources), I did NOT consult any Christian authored, anti-Mormon sites. I made this decision partly because I wanted to be sure to use irrefutable LDS source material, partly because in my experience those sites (at best) distort the truth, and partly because most of those sites hate me for my beliefs just as much as they hate Mormons for theirs, and it’s all quite disgusting. I’ve tried very hard in this document to simply outline what Christians believe and what Mormons believe without getting nasty, so that Christians and Mormons can make informed decisions regarding faith. I hope I’ve succeeded.