The short version of it all is, “Most of what’s said by the heresy hunters is either outright fabrication, deliberate twisting of facts, or the obfuscation of Biblical truth. Their goal seems to be to subvert the church and turn Her from Her destiny and purpose in the Lord.”

I’m often accused of being “latter rain”, “river”, “manifest sons of God”, “IHOP” (that’s prayer, not pancakes), “NAR” (New Apostolic Reformation), “WOF” (Word of Faith) and even just plain weird (I prefer “peculiar” ) I tend to resemble those remarks… but I’m not sure I can be neatly defined as any one of those things (nor can what I believe be defined by a denomination).

Perhaps one day the heresy hunters will write about me. We all have goals, right?

Most of these descriptive terms were in vogue log before I even got saved (and some came into fashion before I was even born). They seem to be fairly interchangeable and there’s considerable overlap between them. I have read a number of heresy-hunter websites and even a few reasoned and reasonable critiques of these supposed doctrines and I end up rather confused.

Reading over what the HH’s say on their sites, it’s easy to conclude that at least some of what they are discussing is “bad doctrine”. Some.

But here’s the confusion with the “some” part of it: It doesn’t really seem to exist in the wild (or if it does, it must be quite rare). I’ve spent considerable amounts of time in churches and ministries and around people who fit the HH’s criteria as MSoG. In fact, I know a few of them personally. I’ve never heard much of what the heresy hunters rail against from any of these teachers… or if I do, it’s in a context that has led me to conclude that heresy hunters twist and outright fabricate things. (Big Surprise to everyone… right?) Some of these fabrications are about things that I witnessed personally – it’s kind of hard to convince an eyewitness otherwise

There are a few pockets of church-folk in extreme error. For example, a handful of Branham’s followers concluded that he’s the messiah and will return. The fact that the vast majority of people do not believe this really doesn’t deflate the heresy hunters allegations… “because a few do, all must” is their motto.

It’s very, very rare that I read a critique of these doctrines that is truthful, honest, and biblical. I don’t mind those and I think they are necessary in the Body of Christ. Our doctrines should be able to stand the test of reasoned criticism. Even when agreement does not result, all are edified and the Church is able to move forward in unity. That’s not the tactic of heresy hunters. Their modus operandi is to cause division. Most make wild accusations, show edited clips on youtube, draw broad conclusions, and attempt to deceive the masses into being twice as much a son of hell as they are.

It’s true that the HH’s make points which are truthful (for example, prophecy and angelic visitations are really common amongst this crowd, and the HH’s like to complain about these things). But really – their truthful points all seem to boil down to the fact that they are jealous because they don’t hear from God and operate in His miracles. They want the church to become excellent pew-sitters; nice and tightly controlled. (sorry, y’all…)

So the alleged problems with Manifest Sons of God (MSoG) that the commenter alluded to…

I’m going to draw from the HH site “Let us Reason”, partly because their discussion is fairly thorough, and partly because their vernacular is not as hateful as certain others. According to them, the MSoG has a whole long list of problems. The following list of “problems” is distilled from one of their articles:

• A connection to William Branham.
• belief in the restoration of the Church and of five-fold ministry (apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, pastors)
  • belief in authority
  • The authority to speak blessings… and even curses
• Denial of the rapture “in the classic sense” (that one made me ROFL)
  • that Jesus will not come bodily, but that the “body of Christ” will rise up as the visible return of Christ.
  • belief that the Church must be mature before Christ’s return
• spiritual warfare
• signs and wonders (including healings, seeing angels and demons, seeing visible glory, manifestations, prophecy, etc.)
• revival
• prayer and fasting
• taking dominion over the power of satan and reclaiming lost territory
• anti-denominationalism
• unity in the church
• end-time harvest of souls
• turning the world right-side up (a quote from Rick Joyner, saying we will do so)
• belief that we are, in fact, little gods and/or are equal to Christ.
  • (quoting from LUR) The Central theme to Manifest Sons of God doctrine is the belief that sonship to God comes through higher revelation via apostles and prophets. The Christian life, has levels to go through, to reach maturity. The first level is that of servant of God, the next is that of friend of God, following this is to become a son of God and the realization of gods ourselves. much like the new age potential in man)
• “A perfection of the saints, immortalization, and the attainment of being Christ as we become just like Christ in nature and ability.” (That’s a full quote from LUR..I just couldn’t bear to paraphrase that one!)
• (Quoting again from LUR) Quite a difference from the saints inheriting the kingdom when Christ comes and being servants (co-heirs) in it, adopted as sons (Rev.20:6). This is not a kingdom operated by humility but of power and force. This is why the take it by force teaching , and the pulling down of strongholds. Never mind that neither Jesus or an apostle never taught this to others, because this is what God is doing now. Its new, its fresh!

Yup. A long list. Let’s look at it one by one.

A connection to William Branham.

Any time a heresy hunter wants to “expose” something as “evil”, they connect it to Branham. Branham’s an interesting fellow. I know someone who knew him (and many of the other healing revivalists) personally, so I perhaps have an interesting perspective on the man.

Branham is an example of a man who began well and then wandered off into error. It’s been said that the reason for his troubles is that he stepped beyond the bounds of the anointing God gave him. There’s no doubt that he was gifted by God to heal people. He wasn’t, however, anointed as a teacher of theology. Reading over his doctrines, I can see where he got them from and why he drew those conclusions. (Yes, I do disagree with some of his conclusions and doctrines. But I also disagree with the doctrines of, say, Calvin and Wesley and can blow holes in both with the canon of Scripture – does that negate their ministries? In fact, I hold that the doctrine of Calvinism, especially in its hyper-Calvinistic form, is dangerous and evil - and yet h-C’s are still my brethren)

One thing about Branham that drives the heresy hunters wild is that he had a slightly different view on the nature of the Godhead than most. He ministered openly in both Oneness and Trinitarian churches, and taught that Father/Son/Holy Spirit are offices and that Christ is supreme. He’s often accused of being Oneness, but that’s not true. I need to say here for clarification – I’m strictly Trinitarian. But I’ll minister alongside my Oneness brethren just like I’ll minister alongside my Reformed brethren.

Does the fact that he erred greatly later in life negate his entire ministry? No. Does the fact that a handful of his followers really went off the deep end negate his entire ministry? No.

Belief in the restoration of the Church and of five-fold ministry, belief in authority, and the authority to speak blessings… and even curses

I really hate that something so incredibly simple in the Word of God becomes so fraught with misunderstandings… and worse.

Five-fold ministry is simple. God calls people to ministry. People minister. God gives them the authority to fulfill this ministry. This authority covers an awful lot of territory within God’s stated purposes for ministry.

Most church people (even heresy hunters) agree that authentic pastors are called to ministry and have (or should have) authority in the church. And most people will agree that some people are called to be evangelists (Billy Graham, for instance) and, if they think about it, will agree that some are called as teachers.

The offices of Apostle and Prophet are treated a bit differently. It’s ok for the pastor to have a little power (not too much), but nobody today is an Apostle or a Prophet… right? Wrong.

God established these offices and nothing (not one thing) in the Word removes them. Don’t believe me? Read Ephesians 4. The offices today are no different from the offices then.

And speaking of authority…just as the folks in the NT had the authority to bless and to curse (see for example, Acts 13:10, Hebrews 13:20+), so do five-fold ministers today. Must five-fold ministers be walking in God’s will? Of course. Will we mess up? Of course. And yet our most holy, omniscient, omnipotent God has trusted man to do His work from the very beginning of time. If God trusts man to get’r'done… shouldn’t man trust God trusting man?

Denial of the rapture “in the classic sense” (that one made me ROFL), that Jesus will not come bodily, but that the “body of Christ” will rise up as the visible return of Christ, and belief that the Church must be mature before Christ’s return

I literally laughed out loud when I read the “denial of the rapture in the classic sense” part. Why? Because the pre-tribulation rapture of the church is a relatively new doctrine. The church going through the tribulation would be a “classic” doctrine.

I’ve posted at length here on the blog regarding my beliefs about the rapture, so I won’t get into all of that (I’ve become a post-tribber, tho hey! it wouldn’t be bad to be wrong). The fact is that an excellent case can be made either way, and even a fairly good case could be made for a mid-tribulation rapture. All from Scripture. Among “river” people (see the broad list near the top of this post), there’s a broad range of views on the rapture; mostly standard pre- and post-trib.

I have never heard it taught that Jesus will not return bodily and personally. I have, however, heard it taught (and teach myself) that the Body will rise up and become mature before His return. If Jesus is returning for a pure, spotless Bride… we’ve got a long way to go! I do not believe that the entire church (that is, everyone who attends a building on Sunday morning; from pew-sitter to pastor) is part of THE Church. God will separate the wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats, the wise from the foolish. I don’t believe for one minute that the rapture is going to happen, leaving people who thought they were Christians behind. That is taught in a large number of churches. Perhaps they’re right! But I sure don’t see it that way in the Bible. Those who are Christ’s are His, and those who are not are not, and this will be evident to all. In that day people may try to argue and manipulate… but they’ll know, and they’ll know why.

The Church will go through the tribulation – attacked by the enemy but standing strong even in deadly persecution (much like Steven in Acts 7), and protected from the wrath of God that will be poured out on the world.

If you’d like Scripture, check out my post on the timing of the rapture.

Spiritual warfare and taking dominion over the power of satan and reclaiming lost territory

signs and wonders (including healings, seeing angels and demons, seeing visible glory, manifestations, prophecy, etc.)

prayer and fasting

I get the biggest kick out of people who rail against these things. I mean… really. I think the heresy hunters sit with an exacto knife and anything related to warfare, wonders, and overmuch prayer must be excised from their Bibles. Jesus taught it – the apostles lived it – and some live it today (Mark 16:16-20)

anti-denominationalism

unity in the church

Anti-denominationalism: herein lies a big can of worms that I’m going to open, with glee.

Denominations are extrabiblical (EB). That means most heresy hunters are IFB *and* EB.

That doesn’t mean that denominations are bad (or good) – it just means that they’re not outlined in Scripture. Of course each denomination has their own focus, and that’s not a bad thing in and of itself. Paul talked about the Body of Christ being like a body… eyes and ears, fingers and toes. It’s similar to the five-fold ministry and the gifts, but on a broader scale. Some churches are called to see – and others to hear – and others to do. If this concept intrigues you, you should read John Burton’s 20 Elements of Revival and see his outline of the city church.

I’m semi-anti-denominationalist   I suppose I’ve technically never been a part of one – the Assemblies of God and Foursquare are technically not denominations – but I’ve always considered them to be so. To the extent that they fulfill Kingdom purposes they’re great. But denoms are often hidebound and bring disunity where there should be unity and I don’t deal with that. My current church is non-denominational and I love it; we operate within a sphere of apostolic covering and oversight and bring unity to the body everywhere we can.

The Church should have unity. We should exude unity. Aren’t we supposed to be one in Jesus? Two pieces of the unity puzzle are apostolic oversight and prophetic revelation. In the NT, apostles and prophets bring both direction and correction to the Body. Doesn’t mean we’ll all become clones or lose our church’s distinctiveness. There’s tremendous room within unity for Baptists and Presby’s and Pentecostals and _______.  Apostolic oversight doesn’t mean we’d all become Catholic, with a pope telling us what to do. It would mean we’d cease bickering over stupid stuff and fighting for control, and I suspect that wolves dislike this concept.

A huge part of the problem today is that self-appointed people (that’d be heresy hunters) are trying to function in the roles of apostles and prophets, bringing correction where they lack the authority to do so. I do find it amusing that the same folks who holler about apostolic and/or prophetic control are the folks trying to control everyone they run across…

revival and an end-time harvest of souls, turning the world right-side up (a quote from Rick Joyner, saying we will do so)

I’m not going to address revival here because I’ve done so in numerous past posts. See #1, #2, #3 on the subject. Suffice to say – revival is coming. So is the falling away. Which side will you be on?

I will, however, address the silly slam against Rick Joyner for saying that we will turn the world right-side up. LUR goes wild about what RJ had to say on the subject. After all, the Bible says that the apostles turned the world upside down, right? If we turn it right side up, we’re reversing it! <gasp! how awful!>

Let’s look at this logically. It’s all there in Acts 17. The Jews get ticked off at the actions of Paul and Silas, gather a mob, and storm Jason’s home. They claim that P&S&co have turned the world “upside down”. They are quoted as saying this (it’s not what God said).

From a non-Christian perspective, I suppose their little worlds did get turned upside down and wrongside out. But in God’s perspective, didn’t the apostles go about RIGHTING things?

Hmmm.

belief that we are, in fact, little gods and/or are equal to Christ.

This is a topic that I am still researching, because most of the clips and quotes I’ve seen of various preachers espousing this doctrine are heavily edited. If anyone out there has a videom audio, or article that is on the ministry website of the person who said it (if you’re complaining about Benny Hinn, for example, the clip/article is on HIS website), I’d be happy to look at it. I don’t waste my time on heresy hunter sites or youtube (unless it’s an event I was at personally so I know wherein the edits lie)

Most of what I’ve seen thus far and been able to research leads me to conclude that this alleged doctrine is something the HH’s have taken far, far out of context. Nobody’s saying that humans are, or can become, gods or God. They are saying that if we’re sons and co-heirs we’re living far short of our potential and calling (I’ll address some of that in the next part)

But I’m willing to examine evidence (real evidence, that is).

Sonship via higher revelation // Perfection, immortality, attainment of being Christ

This is one of those things that just make me shake my head in wonder… “You get what? From WHAT?”

(quoting from LUR) The Central theme to Manifest Sons of God doctrine is the belief that sonship to God comes through higher revelation via apostles and prophets. The Christian life, has levels to go through, to reach maturity. The first level is that of servant of God, the next is that of friend of God, following this is to become a son of God and the realization of gods ourselves. much like the new age potential in man)

(And still more from LUR) “A perfection of the saints, immortalization, and the attainment of being Christ as we become just like Christ in nature and ability.”

Let me be clear: sonship to God comes as a result of true salvation. When we commit our lives to Christ, the Holy Spirit comes – and it is by His Spirit that we are adopted children of God:

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, bu you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs – heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. (Romans 8:14-17)

Sonship does not come from the relationship with any apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist. Sonship comes from right relationship with the Lord. Period.

However – most of us are taught from an early age that we are nothing but maggots in the eyes of God (remember that old hymn with the bit about, “For such a worm as I?”. Worthless. Unworthy of salvation. Unworthy of love. An epic #fail.

In human terms, we really are. We can’t measure up to God’s standards. Apart from Christ, we are indeed hopeless. But God so loved the world… He ascribed to us – to sinners – even to people who hate Him, as I once did – so much value that He sent His only Son to take the punishment we so richly deserve. Are we really maggots, then? Are we really worthless? Or are we worth so much to Him that He would give everything to save us? (Daiyenu!) He did not only save us – He sends His Spirit to dwell in us. He adopts us as children.

Get this (let me know if you need Scripture but it’s all pretty basic) – get it deep down in your spirit and bring it up into your minute-by-minute consciousness:

• Jesus is God’s Son.
• If you are saved, you are God’s son (or daughter; for the sake of brevity I’m going to stick with son)
  • Why is this so? Because you are wanted – desired – passionately loved.
• Jesus is the heir to the Kingdom.
• If you are God’s son, you are also the heir to the Kingdom.
  
• You are destined to rule and reign with Christ.
• You *will* live forever. You *are* immortal. You will either live alive with the Lord, or you will live dead in hell – but you will continue on for eternity.
  
• God’s intention is for us to grow more and more Christlike.
• You are in training right now and considerable authority has already been given to you.
• Jesus is coming – whether He comes and zaps the church off into the atmosphere with Him, or whether the church goes through the tribulation and then He comes – one way or another, He is coming. And He is coming soon. That Day is closer than any of us realize. The Church who are (physically) alive at the time of His return will never experience (physical) death. That could be you and me. And that, my friends, is pretty cool in my book   And that, my friends, is the very biblical answer to the question of immortality.
  

Anything less cheapens grace and lessens God in the eyes of man, folks… be very, very careful.

So why are apostles and prophets playing a part in this? Why are maturity and “levels” playing a part?

If, when you come to Christ, you believe you are a worthless sack of xxxx coal, you cannot walk in the fullness God intends for you to walk in. You are incapable of receiving the enormity of love He wants to pour out on you. You must grow up in Christ. Every day, God’s desire is for each of us to grow more like His Son. Anyone who denies that we are supposed to be growing in Christ and that doing so is a process of maturing is… well… biblically illiterate.

In one sense, yes – when you say “yes” to Him, you are complete in Him. But you have by no means arrived. If you said “yes” in 1992 and are still at the same spiritual level ten and twenty years later as you were the day you got saved, something is horrifically wrong.

I hate to say it… most of the church needs deliverance. Some in a classic sense (they’re demonically oppressed), and some in the sense that they’re hanging on to these lies. Apostles and prophets (and really all of the five-fold ministers), by their very job description, are enabled by God to see, expose, and counter spirits and lies with Spirit and truth. I’ve been privileged to be ministered to in this way, and very privileged to minister to others. Lies flee when confronted with Truth. Freedom is a beautiful thing.

What is the POINT of five-fold ministry to begin with? Why did God give us apostles and prophets, teachers and evangelists and pastors? Unity, knowledge of Christ, perfection, measuring up to Christ, maturity… read it for yourself. The heresy hunters hate it, but it’s all right there in plain langugae in Ephesians 4 (if you’ve left that section in your Bible, that is).

(Quoting again from LUR) Quite a difference from the saints inheriting the kingdom when Christ comes and being servants (co-heirs) in it, adopted as sons (Rev.20:6). This is not a kingdom operated by humility but of power and force. This is why the take it by force teaching , and the pulling down of strongholds. Never mind that neither Jesus or an apostle never taught this to others, because this is what God is doing now. Its new, its fresh!

Neither Jesus nor an apostle taught power and force and pulling down of strongholds? What Bible is LUR reading? Humility is not debasement or worm-i-fication.  A humble man can – and will – certainly “take hold” with power and force. Humility is required for the pulling down of strongholds and spiritual warfare (remember the lesson of the sons of Sceva). There is a huge difference between humble application of power and authority and arrogance. We must become a people of great humility and great power… not because of who we are, but because of who God is.

Remember Jesus, guys? Mr. Humble He is – Mr. Milquetoast He’s not.  He tore up the money changers, showed up the authorities, tripped up the Pharisees, gave boot to the devil, and handed over the keys to the Kingdom of God (to who? but that’s another post). He ate with sinners, washed feet and had His feet washed, forgave the whores and thieves, healed the sick, cleansed untouchables, raised people from the dead, did much with little, walked on water, cast out demons, bucked authority… and THEN He had the audacity to come back to life and establish and empower His church after the authorities thought He was taken care of. Even after He went off to Heaven, He still shows up on the scene (see Acts 9 for example)… If we’re called to Christlikeness, we should strive for that level of humility, for the same power that raised Christ from the dead is at work within us.

So in summary – most of what the heresy hunters holler about is thoroughly biblical. In fact, much of what they holler about is stuff that should be so basic to the fabric of Church that it’s unquestioned. Some of what makes them wild is thoroughly un-biblical. Yet those “unbiblical doctrines” are mostly things that seem to exist in their imaginations or in tiny pockets of people and not in the realm of the reality of the Church. And even those bits that may be judged unbiblical by some tend to be seen as thoroughly biblical by others (God is the judge)… in the same manner that reformed people see arminians as unbiblical (and vice-versa), tongues-talkers see cessationalists as unbiblical (and vice-versa), liturgists see relationalists as unbiblical (and vice-versa)…

So. No apologies for an exceedingly long post. If you made it all the way to the end, congratulations If you’d like Scripture for any of it, let me know – I chose not to post much Scripture because, again, this stuff is so very basic.

It’s no secret – I’ll even shout it from the rooftops – I believe there will be great end-times revival. My beliefs on the matter are a bit different from others in that I think there will be more than one stream of revival – imagine, if you can, Toronto, Brownsville, and Lakeland happening all at once in their respective cities – and this magnified worldwide! People won’t have to travel far to “go to the revival” because it will be happening in their own cities and in their own hearts. Glory to God!

The summary of this entire document is this: God loves us. He wants us saved and He wants us to worship Him and he wants us to live according to His word. He’s going to bring that about!!

Definition of Revival

Let me start by defining revival. Most people define revival as something new and extraordinary, with unusual manifestations and God doing lots of stuff. Revival is all of those things, but really, it shouldn’t be. We should be LIVING biblically – which means an incredible relationship with the Lord, winning souls, and signs, wonders, and miracles. Now. Every day. The entire church.

True revival is nothing short of a reinstitution of true biblical Christianity. The Church today, for the most part, is fallen and weak. People are more concerned about buildings and programs for ourselves than the lost, and more concerned about privilege than they are about repentance and God’s glory. For shame.

When Christians really get hold of who God is, and who they are in Christ, the enormity of God’s love,  that the promises God makes in the Bible are true and they are ours to walk in, and that we must walk in true relationship with Him (which involves repentance and lots of 2-way communication), giving Him the glory in all things, when we become fervent and passionate Kingdom people, revival begins to happen.

Sustainable revival will occur and multiplied thousands will come into the Kingdom when the church realizes who she is in Christ – and I believe that God will bring this about in our lifetimes.

The world has experienced many revivals in modern times – The Welsh Revival, Asuza Street, the great healing revivals of the 1950′s, Argentina, Toronto, Brownsville, Lakeland – to name a few. There are several churches that have been seeing sustained revival for many years – Bethel Church (Bill Johnson), World Revival Church (Steve & Kathy Gray), many of the IHOP-affiliated churches… and many churches that are intentionally growing a passionate revival culture (two of which I’ve been privileged to attend recently – Global River in Wilmington, NC and New Day Church in High Point, NC).

Purpose of Revival

God, in His mercy and for His purposes, gives us the occasional taste of revival. Part of the reason for this is to remind the church (and the world) that He’s still on the throne! The Word does say that we will share the gospel and signs will follow (Mark 16:20)! Part of the reason is probably so that the church can get its collective feet wet! There has been too much “church as usual” and not enough, “What does the Lord want us to do?” Another reason for revival – a harsh one – is to expose hearts. Do people really have a heart after God? Are they willing to pursue Him at any and all cost? Or will they stand in opposition to what He’s doing in the world? Will they harden their hearts and rebel because they don’t like what He’s doing? (Hebrews 3:15)

These tastes of revival have made many hungry for more, and we are, one by one, hundreds by hundreds, thousands by thousands, building a God-glorifying revival culture world-wide under His direction. As God directs and this gains momentum, we will one day reach a “tipping point” and revival will sweep across the planet.

Revival is what we are SUPPOSED to be living. Yet even those who are living it understand that we can take it to the next level, we can always go deeper into the heart of God.

Yes – we got all of Him as a result of the atonement. This is a very common anti-revival argument, but it holds no weight because so many are living like paupers when we’ve got millions in the bank, because we simply will not draw near to Him and surrender our entire lives. We refuse to be a living sacrifice because of our religion.

Revival is offensive – but don’t you dare act on that offense!

When revival breaks out, even on a small scale, it upsets spiritual, emotional, religious, and cultural norms. Revival frightens people. Revival offends people. It especially offends those who are not experiencing God’s glory for themselves. And because it is offensive, many people react VIOLENTLY against it. It seems like new heresy hunters are being raised up by satan every day

Let me be clear: If you don’t like something about a particular stream of revival and you are convinced it’s not biblical, go and get as close to God as you possibly can. Spend significant time with Him, simply adoring Him and cherishing His presence, until He begins to move in mighty signs and wonders in YOUR life. Spend time in the Word, studying about revival and also about offense and criticism within the Body of Christ. Don’t you dare criticize a move of God if you are not experiencing one yourself and don’t you dare criticize in an unbiblical manner.

What is the church’s role in the coming revival?

So – the Church is supposed to be living biblically. As a whole, we’re not. But more and more people every day are embracing Christ, rather than just naming themselves by His name and showing up for church on Sundays and Wednesdays.

Which, if you’re starting here, will undoubtedly leave you with a question. Most people have heard that the church will fall away during the end times. Is the church SUPPOSED to stand up and walk biblically here at the end of the age? Or is the church SUPPOSED to fall down, weak and pathetic, and flounder about until Christ comes? If the former – what’s stopping you from doing just that? Rise up! Awake, sleeper! And if the latter, I’ll ask the same question. What’s stopping you? Oh! You were already advocating we should do that. OK. [Go back to Part 1 for a more thorough address of this issue]

If you’ve been taught that “the church must fall away, therefore we cannot have revival” or even that “we shouldn’t get excited and emotional, it’s unseemly” stop and consider just for a moment. Put yourself in God’s shoes, so to speak (He won’t mind, I promise). Which would you rather have: a weak, pathetic church that gets more excited over football or a rock concert than over you? Or a sold-out, excited, eager church that’s willing to go anywhere and do anything for you? It’s really obvious when you think about it that way!

A couple of notes, before we feast on the Word:

I unfortunately don’t have time presently to go through the Bible and categorically list every passage of Scripture supporting end-times revival (that’s coming, book-by-book and chapter by chapter!). I confess – before I embarked on this project, I knew there was a lot of Scripture related to end-times revival… but I had no idea just how much!

I’ll probably divide this up into chapters over at Revival Answers, for easier reading, and create a PDF so it’s easily printable…but give me a few days and a few more edits!

Now – before I go further – I do have to say (for those who didn’t know already) that among end-times revivalists there are two very distinct camps:

* those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture,
and
* those who believe in a post-tribulation rapture.

Regardless of my personal theological bent (which is in flux on this one issue), I maintain that both camps are orthodox and will not judge between them here. There has historically been needless division within the church over this issue and I’m not going to allow its furtherance on this blog. Also regardless of my own thoughts on the rapture, we should be ready for anything and we should ALREADY be living revival. If we do what’s needed now, then it really won’t matter to us whether we’re raptured before any excitement begins or we are victorious in those seven years of the Tribulation. I am going to try to include Scripture supporting both conclusions, and let the reader research, pray, and judge.

And also before I go further – can you not see revival already happening – worldwide – already? Africa – China – South America – and yes, in small pockets even here in America? Look up, Church! It’s just going to get better and better!

Scripture addressing revival – particularly end-times revival

As you read over these Scriptures, ask yourself: Is this a reality in my life RIGHT NOW? and if not – why not?

Let’s start with the most basic of Scriptures, the one everyone has memorized: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16) We have collectively lost track of just how much God loves us, that He would give Jesus to take the weight of our sins and bear the punishment for them. We in the church have this awful tendency to reduce “the world” down to “us” and “loved members of our immediate family”. Very few take the “world” part literally – but God means it very, very literally. He wants each and every person in the whole world in every generation to come to know Him (1 Tim. 2:4). There are many ways people come to Christ – evangelism, missions work, supernatural means… and revivals. When revival comes, many will be swept into the Kingdom of God. God has promised a great harvest before Christ returns (John 4:35, Rev. 14:15). The Church must be ready to disciple these people!

The Great Commission: Jesus said, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I can commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-20)

Jesus is speaking of a victorious Church walking in His power and His will, GOING and making disciples of all nations. He’s speaking of a triumphant Church! Jesus is not talking about His Bride resting on her laurels. He’s not talking about people lounging in their pews, clucking with their tongues at the ways of the world around them, proclaiming that the “falling away” is happening in the church (it is – in THEM!). If the Church is supposed to fall away, then who is going? baptizing? teaching? And who is hearing, being baptized, and being taught? Where exactly is Jesus in that scenario? He’s not there and it’s not bible. Rise up, Church, and walk in the power and authority of Christ!

God’s Great Love: God is… not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9, cf 1 Tim 2:4 again) If God is unwilling for people to perish, His nature dictates that He is going to give them all opportunity to come to Christ. Some will come to Him via face to face, one-on-one evangelism. Some will come as a result of church attendance. Some will have dreams and visions (like I did). Some will hear the gospel preached in the open air at a revival meeting. Some will even fall on their faces and weep for repentance out in the streets, as happened in the Welsh (and other) revivals.

The parable of the sower (Matthew 13:8): Jesus said that some seeds fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He is of course talking about people, and He’s talking in an immediate sense of people being saved and becoming Kingdom people. Could it be (just suppose for a minute) that He’s talking about people who are actually productive in the Kingdom, fulfilling their callings, doing His will (which is that we should be out making disciples of the nations, signs and wonders following, because He is unwilling that any should perish)… could it also be that those who are NOT fulfilling that calling are those whose seeds have been eaten and plants choked out in the rest of the parable? I believe that God gives us the opportunity to be 30, 60, 100-fold people… and He expects a return on the investment He makes in us (Matthew 25:15-30, Luke 12:48b).

Now let’s harken back to the Old Testament. I’ve heard it said that we shouldn’t apply the Old Testament to our current walk with God, but that’s absolute silliness. Why? First of all, because Jesus did.  He quoted from the Old Testament quite freely. Secondly, the apostles did (kind of throws the “We are New Covenant” out the window doesn’t it?). Thirdly, much of that prophecy is being fulfilled right now and will be fulfilled in the near future. Want to see prophecy being fulfilled? Turn on the news. If you don’t want the OT to apply to current times, you’re going to have an awful problem when Jesus shows back up on the scene.

Perhaps the most obvious “revival” passage is Joel 2 as quoted by Peter in Acts 2, but Joel 2 as a whole is very rich. God warns of the coming judgment – “For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible, who can endure it?” … and then admonishes us (“Now, therefore”) to turn to Him with all our hearts, with weeping and fasting and mourning… to rend our hearts and not our garments, to truly return to the Lord. If each and every believer were to do that worldwide revival would break out immediately… and indeed, it has, among those who do!

“And then, the Lord will be zealous for His land, and pity people. The Lord will answer and say to His people, “Behold, I will send you grain and new wine and oil, and you will be satisfied by them…” (verse 19) Please don’t think that God is only talking about food here – He is talking about the satisfaction that comes from Him. He is talking about holy things. Do not trivialize them by believing that He will only provide sustenance for the body. Although there are some parts of the Bible that should not be “spiritualized”, there’s others where the spiritual is the clear contextual meaning. (I’ve noted that most people who have a problem with “spiritualizing” v.18-24 have NO problem with a spiritual connotation on v. 25)

This next passage talks about revival to come – both of the land, and of our spirits: “Fear not, O land, Be glad and rejoice, for the Lord has done marvelous things! Do not be afraid, you beasts of the field, for the open pastures are springing up, and the tree bears its fruit; the fig tree and the vine yield their strength. Be glad then, you children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God; For He has given you the former rain faithfully, and He will cause the rain to come down for you – the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. The threshing floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with new wine and oil.”

This is echoed in several other places, such as Deuteronomy 11 and Jeremiah 5. Just like the grain and wine and oil, we cannot take the “rain” to be literal, get-your-umbrella-out, rainfall (tho He’ll provide that, too!). Here’s one good example why: Hosea 6:3 says of the Lord, “He will come to us like the rain, like the latter and former rain to the earth.”

Glory!! I’m excited – are you? When I read that promise I feel like singing and shouting!

When God’s people get right with God, He is going to bring about a harvest like we’ve never seen before. He’s already fulfilling this promise. Don’t let the train leave the station without you!

And then we come to the part that virtually everyone quotes in favor of revival and spiritual gifts – Joel 2:28-32. If the Apostle Peter quoted it, shouldn’t we?

“And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams your young men shall see visions. And also on my menservants and on my maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the Lord has said, Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.”

Peter considered a part of this prophetic Scripture to be fulfilled “in the now” – he attributed what happened on the day of Pentecost to that fulfillment. Obviously, there is a part for future fulfillment, when the sixth seal is opened (Revelation 6:12) – but God pouring out His Spirit upon His people precedes His judgment. (Some see this as making us “rapture ready” and others see it as making us ready for the Tribulation).

Not only was Joel 2 considered to be a “now” verse at the time of the outpouring at Pentecost, it was considered a perpetual promise of God: “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:38,39)  – The promise of the Holy Ghost, spiritual power, and the operation of spiritual gifts is to you and me, in the here and now, for God’s purposes in the Kingdom. God did say, “Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit.” (Zech. 4:6)

What must we do now? James 5:7,8 is a key passage for establishing what we must do in the “here and now” – and that thing is revival: “Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.”

I grew up on a farm. A farmer does not wait patiently by as the crops grow. My grandfather worked sunup to sundown every day. I helped after school and most of the summer. Farming is HARD work! Plowing (and removing the rocks that “grow” in the winter up north!), harrowing, planting, fertilizing, weeding, picking and squashing endless potato bugs (ugh!), fertilizing, weeding, picking and squashing endless potato bugs (ugh!), fertilizing, weeding, picking and squashing endless potato bugs (ugh!), (it really DID seem like that!) and finally, harvesting and storing.

Kingdom life is like farming for the harvest. Jesus never said, “Hang out and enjoy a pleasant life until I come.” He said, “Do business until I come.” (Luke 19:13) Listen up, church! Jesus expects us not just to get busy, but to stay busy! He expects us to fulfill the Great Commission. He tells us the harvest is plentiful and workers will be needed (Matthew 9:37). Another translation renders Luke 19:13 as “Occupy until I come.” (KJV) He’s given us territory and He expects us to occupy the land, work the land, and reap a harvest.

We must establish our hearts. Establishing our hearts is the key to revival – to Kingdom living – to living lives that are pleasing to the Lord. Paul admonished the church in Corinth to “Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong. Let all that you do be done with love.” (1 Cor. 15:13,14) Jesus is coming! We must be about Kingdom business every minute of every day, and God will give us a mighty outpouring of His Spirit for the harvest.

Matthew 13:39 is undoubtedly a key revival passage: “He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

Friends, whether the “end” for us is with a pre-tribulation rapture of the church (and the righteous shine forth as the sun in heaven) of whether the “end” is the church’s brightest moment in the tribulation,  one thing is clear from this passage: There will be a great end-times harvest of souls. The harvest is the end of the age and it’s already coming to fruition. There will also be wholesale destruction of the tares – those who offend, and those who practice lawlessness.

With all this talk of harvest, I’m prompted to ask readers to judge: Will the God of all creation, perfect and righteous, just and true, Almighty and Holy, be satisfied with a small harvest? To paraphrase Mike Bickle, would the Father present His Son (whom He loves!) with a Bride who is small, weak, pathetic, and uncaring?

I am purposely avoiding the topic of manifestations, signs, wonders, and so forth in this document (that will probably be part 3). I did this partly because there are so many, and I’m at nearly 5000 words just in the basis for revival. (and could easily write another 10,000 more!)  However, we should look briefly at the end of Mark 16 with regards to the harvest: “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover. So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat  down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working through them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs.” (Mark 16:15-20)

Jesus said, “Go everywhere. Do this. Do it this way.”  The result of this is scenes like in Acts 8, as well as in modern revivals: Preach the Word with signs and wonders following and many multiplied thousands will be saved.

When is the end? In Matthew 24:14, Jesus said, “And this gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

God really does say that we need to get out there and fulfill the Great Commission before Jesus can return. Why then are there so many churches of “Us four and no more”?  The Apostle Peter even said that we should be “hastening” the return of our Lord! When will we focus on our coming King and His purposes? The time is now!

In fact, it was prophesied by Isaiah that we would have revival when we turn wholeheartedly to the Lord, and He describes what will look like (Isaiah 58:6-12):

Is this not the fast that I have chosen: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out; when you see the naked, that you cover him, and not hide from your own flesh? Then your light shall break forth like the morning, your healing shall spring forth speedily, and your righteousness shall go before you; the glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard. Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer; you shall cry, and He will say, “Here I am.”

If you take away the yoke from your midst, the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness, If you extend your soul to the hungry and satisfy the afflicted soul, then your light shall dawn in the darkness and your darkness shall be as noonday. The Lord will guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and strengthen your bones, You shall be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail.

Those from among you shall build the old waste places, you shall raise up the foundations of many generations, and you shall be called the Repairer of the Breach, the Restorer of Streets to Dwell In.

No, Isaiah does not address much in the way of revival phenomena here. Nobody falls down, speaks in tongues, or sees an angel. Yet look – deliverance, salvation, healing, sanctification, God’s glory, power, and evangelism/restoration are the key themes. Sounds like revival to me!

Isaiah echoed much of this a second time in chapter 61, which Jesus in turn quoted in Luke 4 as proof of His divinity. Isaiah 61 is another chapter that is incredibly rich – first talking about freedom, deliverance, and salvation, then about restoration and rising up.

Consider, for a moment, what the fulfillment of this promise might look like:

“I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God, For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels. For as the earth brings forth its bud, as the garden casuses the things that are sown in it to spring forth, so the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.” (Is. 61:10,11)

Are you adorned, Bride of Christ? Are you ready for your Bridegroom? Have you brought oil for your lamp (Matthew 25:1-13)? Are you springing forth in righteousness and praise? Are you rejoicing in the God of your salvation? That is the beginning of revival!

The enemies of the Lord: Andrew Strom (with whom, for the record, I disagree much – but he makes a great point here) notes that “Jesus can’t return until His enemies are made a footstool. If the church doesn’t rise up triumphant, then God will have to put the Bride of Christ in the enemy” category. (Acts 2:33-35, Heb. 10:12-13)” [link]  (Unless you ascribe to a pre-trib rapture, in which case the church won’t be here during that process. But to counter that, one could ponder just how much of a “pure spotless Bride” (Eph. 5:27) the Church is, should Christ return today – and how will she become that way?)

The time for neglect is over, church. Peter wrote that we are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people (1 Peter 1:9)… John called us “kings and priests” unto the Lord (Rev. 1:6). It is time that we start walking worthy of our calling (Ephesians 4:1, Colossians 2:6,7) in the fullness and completeness of the Gospel of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Let us return to this mindset within the Church: “A fire shall always be burning on the altar; it shall never go out.” … ” For our God is a consuming fire.” (Leviticus 6:13, Hebrews 12:29)

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All Scripture cited is NKJV unless otherwise noted.

Many thanks to my friends at FFF and to John Burton (20 Elements of Revival) for pointing me in the right direction on this!

Uncle Google just directed me to the above site, which references some historical revival materials – manifestations are nothing new. Fascinating stuff!

It’s oft-argued by heresy hunters and critics of revival that the Bible does not speak of a great end-times revival. Instead, it speaks of the apostasy of the church and the great “falling away”.

I maintain that God speaks of both.

Let’s examine apostasy first, and get it out of the way (because it’s an ugly business, and also because when heresy hunters read this, I want them to read this part FIRST).

Throughout this article, I’m going to refer to a whole slew of people as “revivalists” – very loosely defined as anyone who believes in the power of God manifest in the here and now and actively working to bring about “on earth as it is in heaven”. This would include people from a broad spectrum of doctrine. I also refer to a passel of people as “heresy hunters” – those who devote their lives to picking for nits exposing heresy exalting satan and denigrating God. (for more on this, visit http://huntingheresyhunters.wordpress.com.)

The passage in question is from 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4; 9,10 -

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. [...] The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they may be saved.

This is echoed in 1 Timothy 4:1 -

Now the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons…

As a side note, it’s VERY interesting to me that Paul does not outline false prophecy, seeing angels, gold dust, feathers, or C. Peter Wagner as elements of deceiving spirits and demonic doctrines. He DOES however talk about speaking hypocritical lies, forbidding people to marry, and forbidding the eating of certain foods. (Hmmm. We could say Paul missed an opportunity but this IS after all the INSPIRED word of God – isn’t it?)

Let’s turn back to the “falling away”.

It’s quite clear from Scripture that there WILL be a falling away. There’s absolutely no doubt about it. Who will fall away is the question.

Heresy hunters have claimed that those falling away are revivalists. They claim that because revivalists regularly experience (and produce) signs and wonders, that these are the “lying” signs and wonders of the lawless one.

The Bible is quite clear – lying signs and wonders exalt the enemy. They do not turn people toward Jesus, they turn people away from God and toward false gods. They do not exalt the Lord God Almighty.

I have yet to hear a revivalist exalt the enemy. I have yet to see anyone turned away from Jesus or towards a false god. In fact, everything I’ve seen done at revivals exalts the One True God and seeks to give Him the glory for all that’s happening.

The entire stance of the heresy hunters is that one must operate within certain parameters in order to be a “true” Christian. Of course it’s true that there are some absolutes and that those absolutes are absolutely absolute (Jesus is Lord!) but look at what happened when the disciples tried to argue that people should do things THEIR way: Mark 9:38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40 ”For he who is not against us is on our side.”

Now – there ARE people who will work miracles in His name but who are not headed to heaven. Who are they? Jesus says (Matthew 7:21-23) that not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven and not everyone who does signs and wonders in His name are saved. Jesus says, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!” The word “knew” is vital because we cannot approach God without knowing Him. The word implies an intimate relationship, as opposed to simply knowing about or intellectually assenting.

I believe there are two groups of people who are “falling away” – those who do not love the truth, those who lie and attack the brethren, and who do not exalt Jesus: the heresy hunters;  and people who call themselves Christians but who are fully engaged with the world: “Christians” who see astrologists and psychics, “Christians” who practice magick, “Christians” who chase after other gods, “Christians” who practice and support abortion, homosexuality, and other abominations. (For the heresy hunters: As an ex-witch I can say with quite a bit of authority that I’ve seen NO magick among revivalists, and most of the witchcraft I’ve seen is out of YOUR camp (using the loose definition of rebellion and manipulation).

For the sake of clarity and completeness, I want to add that many within the church believe that the “falling away” is represented by the rise of non-Christians in our society. I believe this is a sign of the times, but NOT the “falling away” – for something to fall away, it must have once been where it’s falling from (hope that makes sense).

Although this “falling away” MUST happen, I believe that it breaks God’s heart to see those who profess to love Him acting this way. It’s His desire that all people be saved and come to know the truth of Jesus Christ – and while you still draw breath, it’s not too late for repentance.

Next post on this topic will be Scriptural proofs for the End-Times revival(s).

So – WOWOWOWOWOWOW is all I can really say.

I think we found a new church right off the bat.

Plan A had been to try out half a dozen or so different churches and see where we “fit”. We’d even decided on the one I found Saturday with the Really Great Website (and we heard later in the day that they’re a really great church but probably not what we were hoping for)

I woke up like a shot a few min before the alarm went off, because God told me, “Kathi, today is a new day.”

So at 8:30 or so yesterday morning, our old friend Tommy called us. We went to Calvary together, and after left, they did too for different reasons. Tommy had told us about their new church before and we thought it sounded great – but it wasn’t the right time to even visit. Well, we shifted gears and drove to High Point yesterday morning. Even tho it’s a couple towns away, it’s still under 15 minutes to get there.

The church is in a storefront building in The Worst part of town. Intentionally. Because they like to minister to street people. However, once you walk in the front door, it’s drop-dead gorgeous. God’s gifted Pastor Debbie and some of the women with the ability to transform with paint and accessories – WOW. I should’ve made pictures; I will next week – it’s that pretty!

As we walked across the parking lot, Ken commented that he felt really good about the place. I did too! I looked up and the name of the church is “New Day” (which is what God woke me up with yesterday morning! )

So, breakfast first – coffee and snackies – and meet & greet. We knew some of the people from Calvary and had met others at Tommy’s birthday party last summer. Many of us have a love of prophecy and revival in common.

So, church starts and we’re warned two things by new friends – #1, people tend to get VERY active (flags, tambourines, dancing, somersaults, and falling down…often with no catcher and no injury ) and #2, nobody’s in a hurry.

That translated to about 2 and a half hours of worship! During which I got to dance, and I got to be on my face before God, and I got to dance again in a group – something I’ve never done and the ladies just welcomed me into! – and I got two extremely accurate words of knowlege given to me – one by the worship leader and one by someone on the prophetic team. Neither had ever seen me before… and I mean extremely accurate. And Pastor Mike spoke at length about people having dug wells in various places in the past and those wells came up dry, and it was necessary to dig again, not to give up… Ken and I were both crying…

There was, for some reason we never learned, a Messianic Jewish group there – three men and a woman. Pastor Mike called them up to the front and they prayed and prophesied over them, and then one of the men sang prophetically… O WOW. That was the sort of thing like hearing a shofar – everyone stops silent and then cheers!

The message, when we got to it (no one was in a hurry!) was very good. Pastor’s been preaching about the anointing, what it is, the concept of a transferable anointing and what it is (and isn’t)… it was meaty stuff.

After the service ended, we were offered private prophetic ministry. I’ve never done anything like that before so I had NO idea what to expect. People desiring this ministry were brought to small rooms on either side of the sanctuary. We were brought in one by one, with a team of 3 people, who prayed, and then offered prophecy, and then prayed a blessing. The prophecy given by each in turn was spot-on and things that couldn’t be guessed.  VERY cool. I’ve never seen it done like that before.

Afterwards we hung out a while and caught up with some old friends, and the lady who’d invited me to dance came and hugged my neck and invited me to be on the dance team! Me! With three left feet and a very ungraceful body! I’m SO excited!

Ken got to sit with Pastor Mike for a while and he shared “The Short Version” of how we ended up at his church. He was astonished that anyone would be asked to leave a church under the circumstances we were asked to leave under. We like that Pastor Mike and his team are all about raising people up to do the work of the ministry (like the Bible says to do!) So he’s going to call us during the week and touch base with us about it all.

So… I don’t know if we’ve found our new church, but we’re asking God, “Please, please, let us stay…”

Please excuse my rambling style and any typos – I got to bed late because of the call and had to get up early and just haven’t had enough coffee yet. But as I’ve got church work to do today, and need to carry my brother to the doctor’s, I need to get computer work done this morning!

Per “John’s” request (see comments), I’m noting here that this is a paraphrase of our conversation. Quotes and italics are for illustrative purposes only – it’s largely not word for word. Just a paraphrase. Some of what appears below was never discussed (starting at the green text, on the “scarcity” of miracles) but is me, elaborating on the conversation and making a few points which were not discussed on the phone.

I’d also like to clarify that the first cult we discussed really is a cult and a matter of concern (and also public record, not just opinion… the leader’s been in trouble before for some absolutely hideous things). As the crow flies, they’re a couple hundred miles from here. There’s probably not a lot we can do in the natural to help the folks there, but we can, and should, all be praying for them.

So, “John” and I talked a good while about the reason he called (a cult that’s semi-local to me), conversation turned to other things and eventually to Lakeland and the revival. I hate to say it, but “John” has turned into a heresy hunter. I think he quoted the HH’s as much as he did Scripture.

I thought my poor friend would chew his telephone to bits when I told him that Ken and I had been to Lakeland. When I added that we’d seen miracles and healings, come back on fire for God, and were seeing fruit from the experience, he got somewhat irate – especially when I told him that we personally know a BUNCH of other people with the same testimony. (Clarification – see comments – “John” says that he was not irate. I felt that he was, as he immediately began to challenge me in an incredulous, are-you-an-idiot, and often angry tone. If I wasn’t a grownup I might’ve felt like I’d been treated like a little kid. ::shrugs:: In “John’s” defense, I don’t know him in person and even on the telephone things like tone can be misinterpreted. If I have done so, I’m sorry.)

First he tried to blame our car wreck on having been to Lakeland. (Ummmmmm. Yeah.) He tried to say that there’s been bunches of them, but all he actually had documentation of was one shortly following the meetings, involving a person he doesn’t like very much. My response was that if a person’s caught the fire of revival, the devil’s going to do his best to stop them. Unfortunately that didn’t make him very happy.

He really had issues about TB seeing angels. He made strangled noises when I told him that I’ve seen angels, too. Even seen them at Bentley’s meetings. And <gasp> I even believe in angels that appear as females. (I’m still waiting for scriptural proof against them )

“You’re not supposed to take direction from an angel! Mormons and Bentleys and weevils!”

Oh really? Ummmmm. Shall we look at Scripture for that? How many people in the Bible, both Old and New testament, took direction from angels?

So, after that, he went to the predictable places – TB is a drunk, TB had an affair, TB did this, TB did that. Mmmm-hmmm. True. Unfortunate. Shouldn’t have happened. TB should’ve been walking in holiness. Absolutely. (been there enough on this blog that we don’t need to re-hash it… but if you’re a newcomer and want to re-hash do a search on old posts and read and comment on them.)

TB’s fall doesn’t change the things God did at Lakeland. (we should also remember that TB was not the only person ministering at the revival…most people forget that)

We personally experienced healing and saw countless people saved, healed, delivered, set free and set afire for the Lord. We’re still seeing fruit in our lives and the lives of others. “John’s” reply: Oh, it’s only been six months. The Bible says, “fruit that remains”. Um. Yeah. I guess salvations healings & deliverances don’t remain? Please.)

Next came the weevils of Branham and AA Allen and company, Oneness doctrine, and serpent seeds… I’m definitely a heretic in John’s book. I think Oneness folks are wrong regarding God’s nature, but I don’t think they’re hell-bound. And I know someone who knew both Branham and Allen, and there’s more than one side to those stories. That’s all I’ll say.

Then he started in about “Lying signs and wonders!”

My reply: “OK, “John”, let me ask you something. If you call upon God (the God of the Bible) and you ask Him to do something miraculous, like heal someone, and that healing happens, should you then give credit to the devil for it?”

I didn’t ask him what the devil’s purpose would be in God getting all the glory for miracles. Should’ve.

He said,”But miracles are supposed to be rare today! They’re really not needed any more!”

Ummmmm. OK. What did he base this on, BTW? Not much Scripture, other than the lying signs and wonders bit, and “a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign”.(Neither of which apply to God’s signs and miracles and wonders).

He based it on history. According to his research, the early church fathers in the 1st and 2nd centuries reported that miracles declined. I don’t know about in the early church, but without a doubt miracles became rare, even unheard of, over the centuries. “John” concluded that God just wasn’t doing them much any more. No need to – His word was confirmed, His church was established, so why do we need miracles any longer?

Is it any wonder, that as the church became more institutionalized (and hidebound), that signs and wonders and miracles and gifts ceased?

As God’s power was taken from the PEOPLE and the only folks “authorized” to use the power of God and to KNOW the Word became the priests, guess what? The church stopped seeing God’s power in action.

Hmm, surprise. Imagine that.

Conversely is it any wonder that as people and churches again begin to walk in “priesthood” (1 Peter 2:4,9) that God’s power is being restored to the church?

With the exception of small pockets of believers throughout the centuries who decided to trust God and do what the Bible says, the church remained largely powerless until the Asuza Street revival hit and people were again filled by the Holy Spirit in large numbers. Since then, miracles have been becoming more and more common… again, starting in small pockets of believers but in our generation the church is starting to rise up and do what it’s supposed to be doing. We’re starting to take the gospel of the Kingdom to the streets, where it belongs. May we continue…

You know, I’ve personally received several out-and-out miracles from God. Salvation, healing, deliverance. These are not things that could possibly be circumstances or a sudden spontaneous natural recovery or remission (the genetic disease I had, and the birth defect Ken had, do not simply “disappear” – it’s unheard of!) I know that lots of folks get healed at revivals and church services, but much of what God’s done in our lives has happened outside of the church and even out of the view of people. They have, of course, seen and heard of the transformation and after-effects (which confirms the gospel) – but the onus has been on us to tell them about it.

Why did God do these miracles in us (or in anyone)? Why does He do any miracles? His church is established, right? His Word doesn’t need confirming any more.

I didn’t say this last night, but if this line of thinking were true (the church is established/the Word needs no confirmation) then God would be doing NO miracles. None. Not “rarely” as “John” maintained. Why would He?

But even in defense of this “established/confirmed” theory… Go ask Joe Everyman down the street about the church. Ask him about the Word of God. I’m not so sure he’ll say anything good about the church and the Word. The church and Word are not “established” or “confirmed” in our culture.

That said, the Bible does not say anything about signs and wonders and miracles ceasing (until we’re face to face with the Lord, at which point we won’t “need” them anymore because we’ll be in a living miracle for eternity).

To the best of my biblical knowledge, God NEVER said that once the church is established, He’s going to go off and leave us alone to “do our thing.” In fact, Jesus said that He was sending the Holy Spirit, and called Him the “Helper”… how much help is there from a God who is silent?

Hah – I just thought of something. Throughout Scripture, God makes reference to idols of stone and wood and even imagination. What does He say about them? They’re silent and powerless. And so (part of) the church wants to make God silent and powerless? To me, that’s heresy on wheels.

Consider:

• If healing really is provided in the atonement
• If we’re sons of God and joint heirs with Jesus
• If Jesus really said we’d do greater works than He did
• If “these signs shall follow those who believe”
• If God loves us
• If God calls us “friend” and “sons” but He never even talks with us
• If we’re obedient to the Word and exercising our God-given authority

Then we should be seeing an awful lot of signs and wonders and healings and miracles and yes, even angels. No, God is not a puppet on our string and there are times when He won’t move the way we want Him to (and also times when we render Him unable to). I don’t believe that by faithfully naming something, I can claim it (if I could, there’d be a Starbucks built in the field across the street! Among other things). But I do believe that what we ask according to His will, He will do – and that the closer we get to Him, the more we know how to pray accordingly.

I prayed for six years for healing of EDS before I received it, and I know others who prayed and God said, “Not Yet.” or even “No.” A friend went home to be with the Lord recently… suddenly, after fairly routine surgery, and in spite of literally thousands of people praying and believing God for healing. Why did God not heal her when they prayed, if all of the above is true? In part because there IS a time when our earthly bodies must die and in part because God IS sovereign and there is much we don’t know or understand. God said it was time for Mak Ye to go home.

What are healings and signs and wonders and miracles? They’re often simply this: answered prayers. Somebody prayed for something big, and God did it.

If the church is praying to a god who is silent and is expected to do nothing in response to their prayers, they’re not praying to the God of the Bible and they’re wasting their time.

I’m so glad that the God I serve is wonderfully alive!! I’m glad that He and I talk on a regular basis. I’m glad that He shows me how to pray and gives me information that I need. I’m glad that we’re friends and He shares His heart with me. I’m glad that I sometimes get a glimpse of, or hear from, some of His other servants. I’m glad that when I talk to Him, He responds – sometimes subtly, sometimes dramatically. I’m glad that He’s still in the signs and wonders and healings and miracles business. I’m glad that He has entrusted me with power and authority. Glory to God!

Wooooo! I’m plenty fired up for my day! Time for more coffee. Lord, put people in my path today who need You!

There’s my one-cup-of-coffee humor for you –

Whether they contributed to his fall or not is a subject for another post. (I just had a vision as I was typing that – will write about it later if I get permission to share it – but WOW it does make some things CLEAR)

If they were ONLY talking about TRUE things, I suppose I wouldn’t call them “weevils”. Depending on how they shared the information, I might call them “truthful” or “ugly”. Weevils go after the good – not the bad – and destroy it.

What am I talking about?

Peter’s Gentle Wisdom blog has yet another gem – an expose on the “exposers” who have steadfastly claimed that one of Todd Bentley’s tattoos is occult (specifically that it is the name of the buddhist angel “Emma-O”).

Turns out, it really means “King David”.

Here’s a link: http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=720

It’s high time for a liberal dose of pesticide on the weevils of the church.

Several folks here have made comments about all of the innocents and baby Christians who were “hurt” by Todd Bentley’s fall.

I admit, it’s a reasonable assumption to make. I’m not knocking anyone for their concern.

But I got to thinking… where are these people? I’ve not heard from a one. Haven’t seen any on TV interviews or in the numerous blogs I read on Christian topics (many of whom reference this issue – some good, some bad, some heresy hunters).

Could it be that the argument is a big red herring?

“Laid Down Lover” is a phrase I picked up during the Lakeland revival. Heather Clark sang a song by that name and it’s stuck with me. I think the phrase is attributed to Heidi Baker. I found myself singing it to the Lord a couple weeks ago.

A few people (just google it) have made the accusation that it’s something perverse, which is rather silly (just google it and read the blogs of people who’ve made that declaration).

What does it mean? A lot of things. Do I fall short of what I’m about to describe? Yes. But Jesus meets me at that place, picks me up, and we go on…

“Laid down” – Jesus laid down His life for me, and He talked about how there is no love greater than when a man lays down his life for his friends (John 15:13). Since I am a friend of God (John 15:14), it would be foolish NOT to lay down my life for Him (Gal. 2:20, Romans 6). God does not desire dead religion and rote sacrifice. He wants us to be living sacrifices for Him (Romans 12:1).

To be “laid down” means to abide in Him (John 15). It means that you are still and know He is God (Ps. 46:10). It means letting go of that which does not profit and not striving for it (Mt. 16:26). It means being both heavenly minded and earthly good.

“Lover” – I love Jesus. Do you? If you love someone, that makes you a lover. Our culture has corrupted the term and made it into something it was never intended to be. “Lovers” now implies people who are having illicit sex. Been there, done that, burned the t-shirt. That’s not love, and those aren’t “lovers”.

A lover is simply one who loves – and I love the Lord with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength.

Deeper than that, the Bible is full of references that portray Jesus as Bridegroom and the Church as the Bride. Jesus tells us (as individuals) to be like the wise virgins, ready for Him (Mt. 25). Then there’s always the Song of Solomon.

I don’t think that “sex” is being discussed in those references. Intimacy, however, is. That’s another thing that our culture has so badly skewed, the word has lost its intended meaning. “To be intimate” is just another euphemism for having sex.

sidebar: why is it that the church complains about words like “lover” and “intimate” but not about “sleep” <ahem> I now return to the post at hand…

Our relationship with the Lord is intimacy! Sin destroyed man’s relationship with God – and Jesus came to restore it. Too often we focus on sin/forgiveness and forget that the Gospel is SO much fuller, richer, deeper, higher!! God wants us to know the love of Christ that passes all knowledge (Eph. 3:18,19). To use a somewhat trite phrase, God wants us to have heart knowledge – not just head knowledge.

Knowing something intellectually is not a bad thing. I intellectually know lots of things – but unless I embrace them in my heart, what good is that knowledge?

The Bible says that Jesus is the Word become flesh (John 1:1). Why? In part, so that we could know Him.  Jesus said in Matthew 7 that there will be people who called Him Lord and did all sorts of things in His name, but to them He says, “I never knew you.”

That word, “knew” (ginosko), like most Hebrew words, is heavily nuanced. It implies an intimate relationship (and in ironic juxtaposition to our English term, it can even imply sexual relations). It doesn’t mean that Jesus lacks knowledge of those people, that He doesn’t know who they are. (It would speak rather badly of a God who claims omniscience if He doesn’t know everyone and everything, wouldn’t it? ) Jesus was talking about knowing them in the context of intimate relationship. He was saying in essence, “Those people were not lovers of Me.”

My heart and my flesh cry out for the living God!

Intellectual knowledge does not stir passion. The Lord wants us to be passionate lovers of Him! My intellectual knowledge of airplanes does not stir me to passion about them. They’re simply convenient vehicles to take me from one place to the next. How often the church treats Jesus like an airplane! We claim the promise, pray the prayer, and He gets us to heaven (some people add, “if we don’t jump out of the airplane along the way” to the mix).

Jesus is not “the only way to heaven”. HE IS LORD! HE IS GOD! Yes, of course, our only way to heaven is through His shed blood. But quit living like that’s the only thing He’s got going for Him! Live in the revelation ofwho He is and who you are in Him! Be filled with all the fullness of God (Eph. 3:19 again)!

I could go on, but my time grows short today. What I’ve written is just a drop in the bucket of what I feel and what the Bible says on the subject. Glory to God!

If Jesus disarmed principalities and powers, made a public spectacle of them and triumphed over them on the cross (Col. 3:15) – and if we are seated in heavenly places with Him (Eph. 2:6) – and we’ve been delivered from the kingdom of darkness (Col. 2:13) – and we have power over all the power of the enemy (Luke 10:19) – and we’re endued with power from on high (Luke 24:49) -

WHY are Christians sick, sad, sorry slaves to sin, circumstance, and the devil?

I think it’s because we’re convinced of our own powerlessness, and we’re not CONVINCED of Christ’s victory. We give intellectual assent to salvation – Jesus paid for my sins, that means that I don’t have to and I’ll go to heaven when I die – without fully understanding what that means in the here and now. We’re not convinced of His glory or His supremacy. Oh, sure, we SAY we are (and to say otherwise would be blasphemy, right?). But do we live like we’re convinced?

Here is my prayer for today…

“…that He would grant you (and me), according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height — to know the love of Christ which passes all knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.” (Ephesians 3:16-19)

I keep coming back to this passage in my devotional time because I don’t think I’ve gotten it yet (which is different from not having it – if that makes sense!).

The width. The length. The depth. The height. Knowing the love. Filled with all the fullness.

The victory.